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Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
- Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
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RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
Aga Tentakulus > 30-07-2026, 07:29 AM
Some people claim there are ibexes in the background of the picture. But they’re goats. The shepherd had goats with him as well.
Many people are only familiar with the white domestic goat. Old breeds look very similar to the ibex. After all, it’s just a wild goat.
The goat was also a working animal.
The standard zodiac sign as we know it depicts the wild sheep – the mouflon – found in the Alps, Italy, France and Switzerland. I’m not sure about Austria. -
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
eggyk > 30-07-2026, 08:19 AM
We can discuss the exact species of course, but given the huge skill level variety of these artists, paired with the general overlap between rams and goats, i'm not certain we can count on these animals being drawn as anatomically correct.
It seems this "eating a tree on a rocky slope" depiction (tradition? depiction? I need a word for "the setting / the scene / the idea / the concept") also transcends whether or not it is even a goat at all. Here is one i've literally just come across as I add the sequence from this MSS:
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So I think there has to be a distinction here between the concept of what is being depicted, and which species of animal it is. This is clearly the same scene as many of the examples in the OP, but it's a sea-goat, and the goat half is also drawn quite differently, especially the horns. -
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
Koen G > 30-07-2026, 08:56 AM
Eggy is right: when a medieval artist was charged with drawing a Zodiac sequence, they didn't go out to the pastures to find the animals and draw them to match the local species as faithfully as possible. In the majority of cases, they'd simply retrieve examples from a sheet in a drawer or straight from another MS.
Draw Capricorn = draw Capricorn
Draw Capricorn =/= draw a familiar animal that looks like Capricorn
Of course, in non-Zodiac imagery, there may be better chances of identifying species. But for the Zodiac, it's all about games of telephone with a number of fixed traditional depictions.
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About the "rocky slope", it's interesting that the darker colored Aries walks on blue ground, and the light one on green. The VM has nothing that systematically functions as grey. Is the blue meant to approach grey rocks encountered in an example? -
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
Jorge_Stolfi > 30-07-2026, 10:35 AM
(30-07-2026, 08:19 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(tradition? depiction? I need a word for "the setting / the scene / the idea / the concept")
What about "meme"? Or "graphical convention"?
Quote:It seems this "eating a tree on a rocky slope" depiction also transcends whether or not it is even a goat at all. Here is one i've literally just come across as I add the sequence from this MSS: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
But that could be a goat, drawn after a couple of Bavarian-size mugs of Bavarian beer.
Or drawn by a monk who had not seen a goat or sheep since he was 5, and had no suitable "inspiration source" at hand.
Or it could be one of the "rabbit jokes" that manuscript artists would sprinkle on their work. Like rabbits hunting people, rabbits with armor hacking knights into pieces, etc.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
Koen G > 30-07-2026, 11:24 AM
In continental Germanic languages, Capricorn is called stone-buck. The name invites the rocks. -
RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
Pierre Dumont Himself > 30-07-2026, 12:22 PM
In German, Steinbock also means "ibex"
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RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
Rafal > 30-07-2026, 12:41 PM
Quote:Based on the manuscripts i've come across so far, capricorn was more commonly depicted as a mountain goat than as a sea-goat
I would say that in medieval times sea-goat was still more common.
Sea-goat is the original, traditional way how Capricorn was presented. It comes yet to Babylonia and is linked to Babylonian god Enki:
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The planet Mercury was thought to be Enki, but Enki was also shown as a constellation of a man pouring water. He was also associated with the goat-fish, a mythological creature with the head of a goat but the body of a fish. Enki became the Western zodiac sign of Aquarius, while his goat-fish became the sign of Capricorn
If I remember correctly, Capricorn presented as normal goat is a German invention. German illustrators were more "brave" than other ones and often changed details of Zodiac imagery. They changed Capricorn to normal goat and Saggitarius from centaur to a walking man. These details are one of the strongest hints that Voynich Manuscript has some Germanic background.
In other sources like French or Italian Capricorn remained mainly a sea-goat.
Maybe you encounter normal goat more often because your "dataset" is skewed, having disproportional number of German manuscripts?
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RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
eggyk > 30-07-2026, 01:06 PM
(30-07-2026, 12:41 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe you encounter normal goat more often because your "dataset" is skewed, having disproportional number of German manuscripts?
Yes, that's entirely possible.
Currently, its roughly 45% mammal, 55% seagoat in entries containing the string "France" in its location. Doing the same with Germany entries gets around an 80%-10%-10% split between mammal, seagoat and uncertain.
(entries meaning a specific depiction within a manuscript, so this is counting manuscripts more than once.)
So that tentatively supports what you're saying about german artists
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RE: Aries Design: Truly Aries, or actually based on Capricorn?
Koen G > 30-07-2026, 04:35 PM
Goat Capricorn from southern Italy, 13th century: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Region of Liege, 10th century: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Winchester, 11th century: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Flemish, 13th century: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This is the Warburg's whole collection of Capricornus as goat or ibex: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Their collection of human archers is surprisingly small, but it also includes some early examples from outside of Germany, even an Arabic one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.