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[split] Big f116v spillover thread.
- [split] Big f116v spillover thread.
-
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
J_Voy > Yesterday, 12:33 AM
JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has there ever been a written reference to “gasmilch” = “goat's milk”?
I know
gaißmilch
geyßmilch
gaizmilch
gaißmülch
gaißmilich
but not “gasmich”....
This is a legitimate question i've seen many people ask, while in standard German this word is spelled 'Geismilch' or 'Gaißmilch' (pronounced: /'gaɪs.milç/) and the main consensus i've found, along with with I believe is that 'gasmich' is likely some dialectal variation as 'aɪ' to 'a' is a sound shift i've seen happen. (This sound shift is especially common in some Southern American dialects of english) which gets us to 'gasmilch', the missing l is something that is a valid point of contention, but what I believe is that it's probably a scribal omission, or some shorthand form, we don't even see the capital 'G' which all German nouns are supposed to start with, instead it is lowercase. This capitalisation rule wasn't even standardised until centuries later. -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Aga Tentakulus > Yesterday, 06:35 AM
It’s actually spelled correctly; it’s just being read wrongly.
In terms of meaning:
In der Bedeutung:
Vorarlberg: " so nimmt der Fluch mich auch"
Bei Wien: "so nimmt der Fluch mich an"
Vorarlberg: “so the curse takes me too”
In Vienna: “so the curse takes me in”
Whether it’s “nim-ez as” or “nim-tz as”, it’s the same thing – just a different dialect.
With "ez"
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RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
JoJo_Jost > Yesterday, 06:35 AM
@ Stolfi
Actually, what you’re showing is a possible clue that it’s an “f.” The “S” in “six” and “so” is written in a single downward stroke. The “f” in “gaf” is drawn downward in a single stroke and then back up again. This stems from the curve that a written “f” is supposed to have.
Unfortunately, this isn’t 100 percent proof, but just a small clue, because this style of writing is sometimes (though less frequently) seen with an “S” as well. It only works here when directly comparing the three “S”s—but given the small sample size, it unfortunately remains uncertain nonetheless.
More important is usually the crossbar, which may also have been suggested by the stroke of the “g”— just a little to short, but that’s just a vague theory. But since “s” isn't written that way at the end of a word, that ‘s’ is also difficult. I'd say it's a tie, with a slight tendency toward “f.”
@ J-Voy
So, in Bavarian/German, there’s a shift from “e” to “a,” but here we’re talking about the diphthong “ei,” and there we also see the shift from “e” to “a” in “ei” and “ai”—that’s how it’s possible. But then omitting the “i” to make it “a” would actually be unusual. Then there’s the missing “L” in “milch”—the vowel could shift to “ü” or even “ö,” but the “l” is significant for distinguishing “milch” from the very common ending “ich” (mich, sich, fraglich, etc.).
So “gasmilch” would require two assumptions in a single word. That actually makes it pretty implausible. (But given how wildly they used to spell things back then, without any rules, anything is possible)
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RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
JoJo_Jost > Yesterday, 06:45 AM
I'm deleting the post; there was a mistake in it.
What remains is:
@ Aga I think "ez" is a possible idea. -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
JoJo_Jost > Yesterday, 08:27 AM
Now I’ve checked it again carefully:
“ez” would be possible, but this results in two possible spellings:
af = auf
“so nim ez auf mich” — so take it upon me (a person taking on someone else’s affliction) — consistent with High German and Bavarian, but typologically the rarer type of blessing.
af = von
“so nim ez von mich” — “so take it from me” (transferring the affliction away from the sick person) — by far the more common formula type in healing blessings, but with a construction that points to the Middle Low German language area.
(“mich” would be ok im MND)
“Poxleber,” however, is Bavarian... -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Aga Tentakulus > Yesterday, 09:16 AM
It’s clear to me.
When I look at the ‘t’, the sound trails off, and the next letter follows on from it.
If I look closely at the ‘g’, I can make out a ‘z’. So now it’s a ‘tz’ and not a ‘g’. And that’s the only way the sentence makes sense.
as=es -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Koen G > Yesterday, 09:42 AM
Okay, I'm going to split this thread, just a minute. -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Bernd > Yesterday, 12:14 PM
(Yesterday, 12:33 AM)J_Voy Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Regarding gais michJoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has there ever been a written reference to “gasmilch” = “goat's milk”?
I know
gaißmilch
geyßmilch
gaizmilch
gaißmülch
gaißmilich
but not “gasmich”....
This is a legitimate question i've seen many people ask, while in standard German this word is spelled 'Geismilch' or 'Gaißmilch' (pronounced: /'gaɪs.milç/) and the main consensus i've found, along with with I believe is that 'gasmich' is likely some dialectal variation as 'aɪ' to 'a' is a sound shift i've seen happen. (This sound shift is especially common in some Southern American dialects of english) which gets us to 'gasmilch', the missing l is something that is a valid point of contention, but what I believe is that it's probably a scribal omission, or some shorthand form, we don't even see the capital 'G' which all German nouns are supposed to start with, instead it is lowercase. This capitalisation rule wasn't even standardised until centuries later.
There's the still unresolved issue of of 'gaismich gens' in a legal deed from 14th century Austria.
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We still have no idea what gaismich means in this context, other than it is related to geese to be paid as tithe. Adjectives before such tithe animals usually refer to dates or holidays where the tithe is to be paid but it makes no sense here.
There are also the rare use of '-mich' as some sort of '-guy' or '-man'. Michel is still used today as the personification of a German guy. The word appears to be more middle- or northern German though but I haven't looked much into it.
Kaufmich -> businessman
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Zwingmich -> stubborn person who forces his will upon others
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Do I believe this is related to the VM? Honestly I have no idea if this word(s) have anything to do with goats or milk. We are not dealing with an isolated word that's hard to read, we are dealing with isolated words that may be readable. I am however certain that whatever that circle after '-mich' is - it's not a standard letter 'o'. -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
JoJo_Jost > Yesterday, 05:56 PM
(Yesterday, 12:14 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Regarding gais mich
There's the still unresolved issue of of 'gaismich gens' in a legal deed from 14th century Austria.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
We still have no idea what gaismich means in this context, other than it is related to geese to be paid as tithe. Adjectives before such tithe animals usually refer to dates or holidays where the tithe is to be paid but it makes no sense here.
There are also the rare use of '-mich' as some sort of '-guy' or '-man'. Michel is still used today as the personification of a German guy. The word appears to be more middle- or northern German though but I haven't looked much into it.
Kaufmich -> businessman
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Zwingmich -> stubborn person who forces his will upon others
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Do I believe this is related to the VM? Honestly I have no idea if this word(s) have anything to do with goats or milk. We are not dealing with an isolated word that's hard to read, we are dealing with isolated words that may be readable. I am however certain that whatever that circle after '-mich' is - it's not a standard letter 'o'.
I agree with the "o"!
"gaismich"
Here certain attributes are assigned to the animals:
"die den chaes fuer sechtzehen wienner phennig vnd zehen "herbst hvenr" vnd sechs "vaschang huenr" vnd vier gaismich Gens."
Herbs hvenr = autumn chickens
Vaschang huenr = Fasching (Carnival) chickens.
That’s probably why “gaismich” is also just a "prefix". So it has to be a name. gaismich maybe is the shortened form of “gaismichl” = Goatmichael. “Gaismichel” is therefore most likely simply a name here—either of a person (which was not uncommon) or even of a farm. (Furthermore, geese were fattened not with milk but with food scraps, since they are grain-eaters.)
The other words:
“Zwingmich” = force me; is a compound imperative that was combined into a single word (noun), which is typical of a certain historical period. That’s why we have terms like “Habenichts” (have nothing)—someone who has no money—or “Störenfried” (troublemaker) or “Nimmersatt” (insatiable)—someone who can never get enough to eat. At the core, however, is a verb: [zwingen] to compel, [stören] to disturb, [sattsein] to be full.
“Kaufmich” (= “buy me”) for “Kaufmann” (= merchant) probably also falls into this category.
here is the "mich" = me
In my opinion, though, that has nothing to do with “gasmich”—the “i” would still be missing! (and gas ist not a verb)
And even if the “i” were a spelling mistake, it would be a name: “gaismichl,” and it still wouldn't have anything to do with “milch / milich” = milk... -
RE: [split] Big f116v spillover thread.
JoJo_Jost > Yesterday, 06:28 PM
I really think Age is right; it's a very simple assumption that makes the sentence immediately understandable. (ockham Razer). The various dialects (Low German, Middle High German, and Bavarian), for example, wouldn't be unusual for a monastery, where many languages intermingled.