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[split] Color annotations
- [split] Color annotations
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RE: [split] Color annotations
Jorge_Stolfi > 16-06-2026, 12:09 PM
(16-06-2026, 11:03 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Focusing on the color annotations themselves again, there are some examples in the Italian manuscript Pierre shared in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., namely near the end on f83v. [...] I find them somewhat similar in feel to those in the VM
Indeed they are remarkably similar. I would think that the Scribe copied that part of that plant from some herbal manuscript that was unpainted but had color annotations, like that manuscript that Pierre shared. Given his inferred skill level, it would not be surprising if he did not know what those letters were.
Quote:Marco has managed to figure out the expected colors for these coats of arms. [...]He is not sure exactly how "z" stands for blue, but there are several options.
Gemini says that in 14th century Old Venetian, Veronese, or Lombard the word for "blue" was often written "zurro" or "zuro", without the "a". Moreover, in that context the letter "a" would have meant "argento" = "silver" (or "white" in blazonry).
Gemini also says that "azzurro" (and Spanish "azul") derive from Arabic "lāzaward" = "lapis-lazuli", the mineral source of the "ultramarine" pigment. The "l-" was part of the root but was dropped when the word became naturalized in Italian and Spanish. Then the "a-" was dropped in some places. Perhaps because it was mistaken for the Arabic definite article...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: [split] Color annotations
Pierre Dumont Himself > 16-06-2026, 09:08 PM
The critical edition says the following about the drawing (which used to be on the last written page):
Quote:Il copista od il correttore del manoscritto, in ogni modo l'autore dei disegni che ornano il racconto azariano e che vengono riprodotti nelle tavole II e III, si dilettò di disegnare nell'ultima pagina del manoscritto una scena mitologica di gusto umanistico: un leone che sbrana un cervo, mentre un fiero centauro lancia una treccia contro la fiera. Al disopra del disegno stanno tre stemmi, cioè quelli dei Valperga e dei San Martino sormontati dallo stemma sabaudo, poiché i Savoia erano già supremi signori dei feudatari canavesani. Era destinato il codice ad un qualche omaggio ?
The cross was not annotated becuase it was meant to remain white! -
RE: [split] Color annotations
Koen G > 16-06-2026, 11:18 PM
Right, that's what Marco also told me but I was puzzled about it for a moment. The Savoy cross is not supposed to have subdivisions, nor a ring in the centre. However, I now believe these lines must have been sketches, to be erased in the painting stage. It's definitely Savoy. -
RE: [split] Color annotations
Pointless.. > Yesterday, 12:35 PM
I don't know if this particularity has been considered.
The word "ros" was common, everyday spoken word for "red" in some specific regions and areas of Northern Italy, such as Friuli and the Dolomite valleys, during the 15th century.
The primary mechanism that turned the Latin russus (or early Italian rosso) into ros was the the dropping of final unstressed vowels.
Historical linguists date the apocope of final vowels in Gallo-Italic and Rhaeto-Romance languages to the early Middle Ages, roughly between the 8th and 11th centuries.
Because this phonetic shift was fully completed centuries before the 1400, it is a linguistic consensus that the populations speaking these dialects in the 15th century were already saying ros. This refers only to the spoken language; in writing they would have used roço or rosso. -
RE: [split] Color annotations
Mauro > Yesterday, 12:56 PM
(Yesterday, 12:35 PM)Pointless.. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know if this particularity has been considered.
The word "ros" was common, everyday spoken word for "red" in some specific regions and areas of Northern Italy, such as Friuli and the Dolomite valleys, during the 15th century.
The primary mechanism that turned the Latin russus (or early Italian rosso) into ros was the the dropping of final unstressed vowels.
Historical linguists date the apocope of final vowels in Gallo-Italic and Rhaeto-Romance languages to the early Middle Ages, roughly between the 8th and 11th centuries.
Because this phonetic shift was fully completed centuries before the 1400, it is a linguistic consensus that the populations speaking these dialects in the 15th century were already saying ros. This refers only to the spoken language; in writing they would have used roço or rosso.
Well, I can confirm in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 'red' is 'ros' ['ros] nowadays.
I'm not so sure the mechanism was the dropping of the final unstressed vowel, rather it was the dropping of the case desinence -us, which is 100% expected in Eastern Lombard. In Italian instead (where 'red' is 'rosso' ['ros.so]) the -us desinence was uniformly replaced by -o.
Why 'u' changed to 'o' in both languages I don't know, nor I know when the linguistical shift russus->ros, rosso happened. If you can give me a reference to a study about it already happening by the 15th century I'd be glad. -
RE: [split] Color annotations
Oscroft > Yesterday, 01:08 PM
(Yesterday, 12:35 PM)Pointless.. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The primary mechanism that turned the Latin russus (or early Italian rosso) into ros was the the dropping of final unstressed vowels
For which the Japanese were extremely grateful, as it enabled them to buy up huge numbers of final unstressed vowels on the cheap!
(Yes, I know it's a terrible joke, but at least it's an attempt at a linguistics joke...) -
RE: [split] Color annotations
Pointless.. > Yesterday, 01:13 PM
This is what seems to have happened.
Latin RŬSSUS /ˈrʊssʊs/-> short Ŭ becomes /o/
Proto-Romance *rossu(s)-> final vowel lost in Friulian and becomes Friulian ros
The Italian and Friulian words therefore seem to share the u → o development.
What distinguishes Friulian here is principally the later loss of the final vowel.
So, you are correct, the change did not come with apocope alone.
I was looking into because the "Rot" written on the page you proposed, could be red also as ros?
References:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: [split] Color annotations
MarcoP > Yesterday, 01:29 PM
Ah, Proto-Romance... -
RE: [split] Color annotations
Mauro > Yesterday, 02:17 PM
(Yesterday, 01:13 PM)Pointless.. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is what seems to have happened.
Latin RŬSSUS /ˈrʊssʊs/-> short Ŭ becomes /o/
Proto-Romance *rossu(s)-> final vowel lost in Friulian and becomes Friulian ros
The Italian and Friulian words therefore seem to share the u → o development.
What distinguishes Friulian here is principally the later loss of the final vowel.
So, you are correct, the change did not come with apocope alone.
I was looking into because the "Rot" written on the page you proposed, could be red also as ros?
References:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thanks for the links!