- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
- Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
-
Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
epidemic7 > 09-07-2026, 08:12 PM
Hello you-all!
I first want to say I have no qualifications besides finding the VMS an incredibly interesting book (and being an occasional conlanger), and I apologize if this theory has already been stated, restated, and debunked ad nauseam, and for any unorthodox terminology used.
My idea is this: although exactly what counts as a letter as opposed to a variation, something in complementary distribution, etc., in the VMS's script is endlessly debated, all the theories that I have seen on the matter agree with 10-14 unique "letters," which is then argued as to whether it is an alphabet, an abjad, etc., but no system can explain the especially low entropy of the VMS text, in comparison to any Latin, German, Italian, or otherwise text in any language whatsoever, to the best of my knowledge.
So instead, assuming that the text has any meaning to it at all, perhaps the "letters" do not represent sound, but instead could be used, sort of as a logography, by combining certain letters and ascribing that sequence to a word, perhaps in combination with certain letters being a semantic category of sorts. For example, I could make "I" A, "sit" B, "on" AA, "the" AB, and "chair" BB, resulting in the sequence "A B AA AB BB" for "I sit on the chair," which, although just to my intuition, would result in a lower entropy than a representation of phonemes in an order, no matter the system devised to turn the words into sequences of characters, as human-assigned patterns would probably have a higher degree of predictability than phonemes. You could then augment this system with, say, "Q" showing that a word is inanimate, and "X" showing that a word is animate, resulting in "XA B AA AB QBB," which may explain the gallows?
I confess to not knowing much of anything when it comes to how text is statistically analyzed, but in assuming this is true, it is still probably impossible to ascertain which letters are "semantic," if such characters do exist, and which are the "building blocks," until and unless the MS is translated, so perhaps one could give a unique identifier to each "word" in the MS (though I know precisely discriminating them is a hard task) and comparing the "relations" of words to one another and then to that of a natural language, which in concrete terms could mean assessing the probability that given some word from the MS, how likely another certain word would follow? And comparing that to the results of some other natural language? That would be my best guess as to falsifying the theory on the merits of statistics.
On problems with the theory, I will say, this mean of statistical analysis seems deceptively simple to the point I would think somebody to have already done this sort of assessment on the MS. In addition this method of "cipher," or perhaps shorthand, to my knowledge is unattested as a method thereof, and in any case would work much better on a more analytical language like modern English rather than Latin, Arabic, or to a lesser extent, German, a sentiment I find strong enough, especially in consideration of a statistic I heard, which may be false, that there are 6000 unique sequences of characters in the MS, that I believe reconciling this fact would require the MS writer to forego articles, declension, and conjugation of whatever language they wrote in, or more likely simplify it considerably, in order to achieve that figure. So testing this hypothesis may require a considerable simplification of the target language one thinks likely to be that of the MS, probably to the point of implausibility. Now, if that figure were wrong, and there was, maybe, 8000, 10000+ "words" in the MS, I would find it more plausible, but this (im)plausibility does rely on an incomplete understanding of the languages it could have been written in, that is to say, if it were in German one might just have to remove the articles to get a "Voynich-like" look, but this borderlines on irrelevancy.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this, if for nothing else than to learn more about the VMS.
Thank you for reading
-
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
ololololo > 09-07-2026, 10:02 PM
Such a "semantic" system is too difficult to implement, read, and practice. This is incredibly expensive on a VMS scale.
Of course, if you're a beginner, this may not be possible, but I would like to see examples of words from the manuscript that could match or resemble your pattern.
As I understand it, you consider Voynichese to be a philosophical language. Well, this hypothesis is quite vague, but it's also interesting.
However, this idea may be feasible as a cipher, but not as a separate semantic system... -
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
oshfdk > 09-07-2026, 10:11 PM
This appears to be a combination of a nomenclator with some elements from a constructed/a priori language. This has been a very popular hypothesis for a long time. As far as I understand, this was the leading hypothesis of Friedmans' (CIA/NSA) investigation of the manuscript in the 1950s. -
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
ololololo > 09-07-2026, 10:21 PM
(09-07-2026, 10:11 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This appears to be a combination of a nomenclator with some elements from a constructed/a priori language. This has been a very popular hypothesis for a long time. As far as I understand, this was the leading hypothesis of Friedmans' (CIA/NSA) investigation of the manuscript in the 1950s.
The peculiarity of this theory is that it is mostly unprovable and not suitable for research. I think it is obvious that VMS is not that brilliant or unique.
There's no point in using such a complex cipher. -
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
epidemic7 > 09-07-2026, 10:24 PM
(09-07-2026, 10:02 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Such a "semantic" system is too difficult to implement, read, and practice. This is incredibly expensive on a VMS scale.
I will admit that the semantic aspect of the script is an unfounded idea in retrospect, and I agree it is definitely more feasible as a pure cipher/shorthand. A good test of the semantic theory would probably be trying to find patterns in, say, the "labels" in the Herbal section, but looking at them now, I don't think there is a correspondence between the letters and any category of thing one can find. "Semantic" letters are probably just a bust.
Of course, if you're a beginner, this may not be possible, but I would like to see examples of words from the manuscript that could match or resemble your pattern.
As I understand it, you consider Voynichese to be a philosophical language. Well, this hypothesis is quite vague, but it's also interesting.
However, this idea may be feasible as a cipher, but not as a separate semantic system... -
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
epidemic7 > 09-07-2026, 10:33 PM
(09-07-2026, 10:11 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This appears to be a combination of a nomenclator with some elements from a constructed/a priori language. This has been a very popular hypothesis for a long time. As far as I understand, this was the leading hypothesis of Friedmans' (CIA/NSA) investigation of the manuscript in the 1950s.
Something like that. I know that claiming it to be constructed doesn't account for many of the anomalous properties of the script; I would find it more likely it is a natural language. Above all, I am curious as to how predictable it is for one word to follow another, which would seem to me an indicator as to whether or not it even is language in the first place. -
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
oshfdk > 09-07-2026, 10:34 PM
(09-07-2026, 10:21 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The peculiarity of this theory is that it is mostly unprovable and not suitable for research. I think it is obvious that VMS is not that brilliant or unique.
There's no point in using such a complex cipher.
I rarely use appeal to authority, but this is really your opinion versus the opinion of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., so unless you have some really really good arguments and are ready to share them, I think I can safely skip over your casual remarks
-
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
ololololo > 09-07-2026, 10:49 PM
(09-07-2026, 10:24 PM)epidemic7 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Of course, the first guess would be to look for a connection in the gallows, as they are often found at the beginning of plant "names." However, this will not provide us with any information, especially when we find plant names that do not begin with a gallows (okeodof).(09-07-2026, 10:02 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Such a "semantic" system is too difficult to implement, read, and practice. This is incredibly expensive on a VMS scale.
I will admit that the semantic aspect of the script is an unfounded idea in retrospect, and I agree it is definitely more feasible as a pure cipher/shorthand. A good test of the semantic theory would probably be trying to find patterns in, say, the "labels" in the Herbal section, but looking at them now, I don't think there is a correspondence between the letters and any category of thing one can find. "Semantic" letters are probably just a bust.
Of course, if you're a beginner, this may not be possible, but I would like to see examples of words from the manuscript that could match or resemble your pattern.
As I understand it, you consider Voynichese to be a philosophical language. Well, this hypothesis is quite vague, but it's also interesting.
However, this idea may be feasible as a cipher, but not as a separate semantic system...
Gallows do not indicate a category or anything similar. They most likely perform the same function as the other symbols. -
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
ololololo > 09-07-2026, 11:07 PM
(09-07-2026, 10:34 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Of course, I'm not very good at argumentation, but I'll try...(09-07-2026, 10:21 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The peculiarity of this theory is that it is mostly unprovable and not suitable for research. I think it is obvious that VMS is not that brilliant or unique.
There's no point in using such a complex cipher.
I rarely use appeal to authority, but this is really your opinion versus the opinion of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., so unless you have some really really good arguments and are ready to share them, I think I can safely skip over your casual remarks
I won't speak for Friedman, because he was definitely better at deciphering codes than I was.
The problem with this version is that we won't be able to analyze VMS from its perspective. Even if we assume that it's some kind of super-logical philosophical language, we still won't be able to describe it. There are no really significant facts indicating that Voynichese could be a philosophical language. This is the first one.
Secondly, if it were a language, the statistics would tell us so. And according to them, Voynichese cannot be a pure language in itself. To be honest, I don't know how supporters of this theory explain the statistical features.
Thirdly, the purpose of this language is unclear. In the Middle Ages, people did not have a need to create their own language from scratch, and if they did, it was usually a philosophical language used for a specific purpose (often mystical, such as Lingua Ignota and Enochian). What is the purpose of Voynichese as a philosophical language? To hide the contents of a book? But you can use a cipher, or at least write in your native language if it's not particularly popular where you are.
As I see it, the first step is to argue why Voynichese can be a philosophical language. It's not just a matter of "I think so" or "Friedman said so," as that wouldn't suffice. At the same time, I agree that I didn't choose the best refutation, but in my opinion, the complexity and impracticality of the philosophical language theory are precisely what refute it due to their inappropriateness. It's still possible to accept a complex cipher, but a complex language for a single book is too much...
(09-07-2026, 10:33 PM)epidemic7 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
@Vuk88 has already conducted research on doubled words. It seems that there are indeed some dependencies, but I understand that there are questions about his research, such as the expected doubling rates.(09-07-2026, 10:11 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This appears to be a combination of a nomenclator with some elements from a constructed/a priori language. This has been a very popular hypothesis for a long time. As far as I understand, this was the leading hypothesis of Friedmans' (CIA/NSA) investigation of the manuscript in the 1950s.
Something like that. I know that claiming it to be constructed doesn't account for many of the anomalous properties of the script; I would find it more likely it is a natural language. Above all, I am curious as to how predictable it is for one word to follow another, which would seem to me an indicator as to whether or not it even is language in the first place. -
RE: Theory: perhaps the letters do not have phonemic content?
epidemic7 > 09-07-2026, 11:32 PM
(09-07-2026, 11:07 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thank you for the pointers. Who is to say what the language of the VMS is, but if it does have a language there must be some correlation one can find between its "syntax" and "morphology," like how "am" only appears very close to "I," or words with a third-person singular subject in the present tense make the verb have an "s" at the end. Of course, these are English examples, which the MS was certainly not written in; but I believe there must be some correspondences of the sort in there, no matter if it's Latin, German, Italian, Arabic, hell, Turkish(09-07-2026, 10:34 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Of course, I'm not very good at argumentation, but I'll try...(09-07-2026, 10:21 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The peculiarity of this theory is that it is mostly unprovable and not suitable for research. I think it is obvious that VMS is not that brilliant or unique.
There's no point in using such a complex cipher.
I rarely use appeal to authority, but this is really your opinion versus the opinion of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., so unless you have some really really good arguments and are ready to share them, I think I can safely skip over your casual remarks
I won't speak for Friedman, because he was definitely better at deciphering codes than I was.
The problem with this version is that we won't be able to analyze VMS from its perspective. Even if we assume that it's some kind of super-logical philosophical language, we still won't be able to describe it. There are no really significant facts indicating that Voynichese could be a philosophical language. This is the first one.
Secondly, if it were a language, the statistics would tell us so. And according to them, Voynichese cannot be a pure language in itself. To be honest, I don't know how supporters of this theory explain the statistical features.
Thirdly, the purpose of this language is unclear. In the Middle Ages, people did not have a need to create their own language from scratch, and if they did, it was usually a philosophical language used for a specific purpose (often mystical, such as Lingua Ignota and Enochian). What is the purpose of Voynichese as a philosophical language? To hide the contents of a book? But you can use a cipher, or at least write in your native language if it's not particularly popular where you are.
As I see it, the first step is to argue why Voynichese can be a philosophical language. It's not just a matter of "I think so" or "Friedman said so," as that wouldn't suffice. At the same time, I agree that I didn't choose the best refutation, but in my opinion, the complexity and impracticality of the philosophical language theory are precisely what refute it due to their inappropriateness. It's still possible to accept a complex cipher, but a complex language for a single book is too much...
(09-07-2026, 10:33 PM)epidemic7 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
@Vuk88 has already conducted research on doubled words. It seems that there are indeed some dependencies, but I understand that there are questions about his research, such as the expected doubling rates.(09-07-2026, 10:11 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This appears to be a combination of a nomenclator with some elements from a constructed/a priori language. This has been a very popular hypothesis for a long time. As far as I understand, this was the leading hypothesis of Friedmans' (CIA/NSA) investigation of the manuscript in the 1950s.
Something like that. I know that claiming it to be constructed doesn't account for many of the anomalous properties of the script; I would find it more likely it is a natural language. Above all, I am curious as to how predictable it is for one word to follow another, which would seem to me an indicator as to whether or not it even is language in the first place.