- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
- Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
-
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
magnesium > 29-06-2026, 07:17 PM
(05-06-2026, 11:21 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not sure if any of this is any use to you, but never know..
I played with something a while back, looking now I think I have deleted the files apart from a tiny notepad file.
But essentially the idea was that if you use 1,2 and 3 you have 26 variants of triplets.
Great minds think alike! A group of Czech researchers proposed something similar in 2022: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
See the discussion section of the paper for more. It would be fun to put this kind of cipher through its paces, computationally speaking. -
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
ololololo > 30-06-2026, 08:56 PM
I take back what I said earlier - it will be easier to explore the text using similar cipher (at least for me). Indeed, everything is relative...
It is also worth noting that there is no nine (ie) in the cipher alphabet in any form. Apparently, it only allows numbers of the form XY, where X is greater than Y. In fact, this could have been guessed earlier, as there are no io, ia, or other syllables in the list.
This is consistent with the logic of "groups" - if two group symbols are joined, the symbol from the higher group should be placed first, and the symbol from the lower group should be placed last. -
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
ololololo > 07-07-2026, 05:27 PM
Apparently, bigrams (ai/ar/al and oi/or/ol) have some rules of usage.
They can be combined either with each other or with other symbols, most often these are ch, k и d.
It is noteworthy that cases when a bigram is combined with both a symbol and another bigram are very rare (and some of them are concentrated on f58r). It looks pretty logical if you imagine that they are equal, for example, II or XI.
I couldn't create a nomenclator like Voynichese... But these attempts gave me a special thought, which will not be discussed here... -
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
Radim Dobeš > 08-07-2026, 08:14 AM
At one point, the thought occurred to me that a single word in the Voynich manuscript represents an abugida, or an abugida with an additional symbol. -
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
ololololo > 08-07-2026, 11:04 AM
(08-07-2026, 08:14 AM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.At one point, the thought occurred to me that a single word in the Voynich manuscript represents an abugida, or an abugida with an additional symbol.
Could you tell me which word you meant?
Many "aboriginal" languages nowadays use Abugida, for example, Pollard's writing for some Southeast Asian languages. In the context of linguistic theory, this really makes sense...
Anyway, everything is possible
-
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
Radim Dobeš > 08-07-2026, 11:41 AM
(08-07-2026, 11:04 AM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(08-07-2026, 08:14 AM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.At one point, the thought occurred to me that a single word in the Voynich manuscript represents an abugida, or an abugida with an additional symbol.
Could you tell me which word you meant?
Many "aboriginal" languages nowadays use Abugida, for example, Pollard's writing for some Southeast Asian languages. In the context of linguistic theory, this really makes sense...
Anyway, everything is possible
Let me give this example from the Ge'ez language. It is a random selection, just for illustration. What if four words from the Voynich Manuscript correspond to four Ge'ez characters? If this is nonsense, I apologize. -
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
ololololo > 08-07-2026, 11:47 AM
(08-07-2026, 11:41 AM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thank you very much!(08-07-2026, 11:04 AM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(08-07-2026, 08:14 AM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.At one point, the thought occurred to me that a single word in the Voynich manuscript represents an abugida, or an abugida with an additional symbol.
Could you tell me which word you meant?
Many "aboriginal" languages nowadays use Abugida, for example, Pollard's writing for some Southeast Asian languages. In the context of linguistic theory, this really makes sense...
Anyway, everything is possible
Let me give this example from the Ge'ez language. It is a random selection, just for illustration. What if four words from the Voynich Manuscript correspond to four Ge'ez characters? If this is nonsense, I apologize.
I can say that such a theory is not really new, we have a Chinese theory in which the approach is about the same (one word in Voynichese is one Chinese character), or, for example, a Semitic theory (as far as I remember, it is also tied to the phonetics of Hebrew).
In your case, you could find more such correspondences and see if they give a meaningful result (as far as I know, Jorge Stolfi did it...). -
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
ololololo > 11-07-2026, 10:15 PM
I've finally managed to create a cipher that can transform Latin texts into a form similar to VMS text. Thanks @oshfdk, because when I gave him an example of encryption, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Let's take an excerpt from the beginning of Lorem ipsum, the first few sentences. The numerical alphabet: A = I, B = II... Z = XXV (U=V=XXI).
The original text: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aenean commodo ligula eget dolor. Aenean massa. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.
I was too lazy to encrypt and arrange the letters myself, so I asked Gemini to do it. I don't know if he did it correctly, but it doesn't really matter right now:
XVIII XV XIII XII V / XXI XIX XVI XIII IX / XVIII XV XV XII IV / XX XIX IX / XX XIII V I / XXI XX XX XIX XVIII XV XIV V V V III III / XIX XVI XIV IX IX IX VII IV III I / XX XII IX V
XIV XIV V V I I / XV XV XV XIII XIII IV III / XXI XII XII IX VII I / XX VII V V / XVIII XV XV XII IV
XIV XIV V V I I / XIX XIX XIII I I / XXI XIII III / XIX XIX XV IX IX III / XXI XX XVII XV XIV V I / XXI XX XIX XVI XIV IX V II I / XX V / XIX XIV XIII IX VII I / XIX IX IV / XXI XX XX XVIII XVIII XVI XIV IX V I / XX XIX XV XIV XIII V / XXI XX XIX XVIII XIV V III I / XXI XXI XIX XVIII XII IX IX IV III / XXI XIX XIII
The encryption of the text will be carried out in three stages: 1). Direct encryption using the first version of the alphabet. 2). Adding various rules to perfect our text. 3). Adding nulls. One of them will be y, and according to my version, it has the same role in VMS (it is apparently less than I).
The alphabet: I = i, V = a, X = e, XX = ch (if separated, then sh), XV = o, IV = ok/ot, IX = ol/or, (XX)I = or/ar, (XX) = ol/al.
Text: oiin o eiin ein a / chor eor on eiin ol / oiin o o an ok / sh eor or / sh eiin an / chol cth* eol oiin o eor a a a iin iin / eor on eot ol or or ain ot iin n / sh ein or a / eot eok a a n n / eor eor eiin n n / char eiin iin eol eor o or or iin / chol sh oin o eot a n / chor sh eor on on or ain n / sh a / eor eot eiin ol ain n / eor ol ot / chor cth* oiin oiin on eor or an / sh eor o eot / chor sh eor oiin eot a iin n / chol chor eor oiin ein or or ok iin / chol eor eiin
* cth = ch + ch = XX + XX
It's seems ugly. We see a lot of rather "bad" words, such as eiin, on, etc., which are not in the manuscript. My first iteration was: eiin = daiin, ein = dan, eot = ote, eok = oke
oiin o daiin dan a / chor eor on daiin ol / oiin o o an ok / sh eor or / sh daiin an / chol cth eol oiin o eor a a a iin iin / eor on ote ol or or ain ot iin n / sh dan or a / ote oke a a n n / eor eor daiin n n / char daiin iin eol eor o or or iin / chol sh oin o ote a n / chor sh eor on on or ain n / sh a / eor ote daiin ol ain n / eor ol ot / chor cth oiin oiin on eor or an / sh eor o ote / chor sh eor oiin ote a iin n / chor chor eor oiin dan or or ok iin / chol eor daiin
That's better. Now we replace o and double o with qo (not all) and on with s.
oiin qo daiin dan a / chor eor s daiin ol / oiin qo an ok / sh eor or / sh daiin an / chol cth eol oiin qo eor a a a iin iin / eor s ote ol or or ain ot iin n / sh dan or a / ote oke a a n n / eor eor daiin n n / char daiin iin eol eor qo or or iin / chol sh oin o ote a n / chor sh eor qo qo or ain n / sh a / eor ote daiin ol ain n / eor ol ot / chor cth oiin oiin qo eor or an / sh eor o ote / chor sh eor oiin ote a iin n / chor chor eor oiin dan or or ok iin / chol eor daiin
Now we introduce the following rules: 1). In the combinations ot iin and ok iin, we can insert the letter a between them, which will have no meaning. 2). Single units at the end of words can be replaced with dy
oiin qo daiin dan a / chor eor s daiin ol / oiin qo an ok / sh eor or / sh daiin an / chol cth eol oiin qo eor a a a iin iin / eor s ote ol or or ain otaiin dy / sh dan or a / ote oke a a n n / eor eor daiin n n / char daiin iin eol eor qo or or iin / chol sh oin o ote a n / chor sh eor qo qo or ain dy / sh a / eor ote daiin ol ain n / eor ol ot / chor cth oiin oiin qo eor or an / sh eor o ote / chor sh eor oiin ote a iin dy / chor chor eor oiin dan or or okaiin / chol eor daiin
It's time for the nulls. We will use the following: y, ir, t, k (they don't mean anything on their own)But there is an opportunity to complicate it with rules like double symbols (a-la y somewhere can have a meaning) or add variety of symbols. You will significantly complicate it if you mix nulls with other symbols., ch, d. The rules are that we can change the order of the letters in a word and combine them.
oiin qodaiin dan chady / chor cheor s daiin ol / oiin qodan oky / sheor or / daiin shan / chol ctheol oiin qoteor aiin aiin chey* / cheor s oteol chor dor dain otaiin dy / shdan or dair / otey
okain** / cheor teor daiin chan / char daiin oraiin qoteol qokeor kaiin / chol shoin oteo dan / chor sheor qokor qotain dy / shey / oteeor daiin olain dy / otol cheor / chor cthoiin oiin qoteor or dan/ sheor oteo/ chor sheor oiin oteaiin dy / chor tchor sheor oiin dan or or okaiin / chor cheor daiin
*I decided to turn the last a into an ey for beauty's sake
** otey = ot + a (ey), okain = ok + a + n + n
In the end, we got a text that wasn't perfect, but was quite similar. We can add more nulls to make it more diverse (for example, use f and p). In fact, this mini-cipher has another important similarity with Voynichese: the repetition of symbols (as in f15v: poror orshy choiin dtchan opchordy and schor or oro raiin).
In my opinion, this cipher is very similar to Currier A, unlike the Naibbe cipher, which is statistically similar to Currier B.
This cipher shows that it is very easy to reproduce the VMS text manually using Roman numerals. There is no difficulty involved - all you need to do is find repeating numbers (such as IV and IX) in the encrypted text and encode them as Voynichese glyphs.
What are the disadvantages of this cipher?
1). It depends on the second alphabet. If it is about the same size as in this example, the text will be very monotonous. You can add variety by adding more numbers and composite characters (such as che).
2). It's pretty simple. Specifically in this form, knowing the rules, you can easily separate the zeros from the actual numbers. For example, you can quickly understand that sheor is sh eor (because sh is a separate standing 20), and cheor is eor (because cheor = XXXIX = 39, which is an impossible number).
In general, you can play with it at your leisure and try to make it more complicated. You might be able to do something
Voynichese itself is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but it seems to have a lot in common with this cipher... -
RE: Voynichese is a numeric cipher?
ololololo > 11-07-2026, 11:03 PM
(21-06-2026, 08:34 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
That's true. You can see that the word otol appears in the illustration of "fallopian tubes":(20-06-2026, 11:07 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Such liberties are possible, but they do not take place, and when you write a book about medicine, you rather sign the fire as fire, because you do not need to play the reader.
I can't agree, if this is a book about medicine and not a kindergarten primer, I'd say it makes little sense to draw fire and label it as "fire". Certainly the reader knows what fire looks like.
In a medical book of the time one example could be a text talking about how humors relate to elements, in which case labelling elements for their corresponding humors would be informative. Then fire would be labelled something like "bile", air as "blood", water as "phlegm", etc.
In reality I don't believe we can expect the fire image to be literally labelled as "fire". It is possible, but it's far far from certain.
In one of the interpretations, shedy was translated as "hot," and or was translated as "cold." But as far as I know, according to medieval beliefs, bile did not flow to the fallopian tubes. This may mean the following:
1). It is possible that the author imagined bile flowing into the fallopian tubes, as he might have associated it with the digestive system, but this is unlikely...
2). This is not a fallopian tubes. There are illustrations nearby that look like the pancreas and intestines, so it's likely true.