Dunsel > 20-05-2026, 01:31 AM
(19-05-2026, 11:33 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you compute the correlation between S2 Herbal B and S2 Quire 13, I expect it will be lower than your S2 vs S3 correlation of 0.948 — despite being the same "scribe." That would mean the within-scribe variation exceeds the between-scribe variation, which is hard to reconcile with a multiple-scribe model but follows naturally from a continuous evolutionary gradient.
| comparison | Pearson | cosine |
|---|---|---|
| S2 Herbal B vs S2 Quire 13 | 0.918 | 0.928 |
| S2 Herbal B vs S3 Quire 20 | 0.942 | 0.949 |
| S2 Quire 13 vs S3 Quire 20 | 0.926 | 0.934 |
| comparison | Pearson | cosine |
|---|---|---|
| S2 Herbal B vs S2 Quire 13 | 0.887 | 0.898 |
| S2 Herbal B vs S3 Quire 20 | 0.945 | 0.951 |
| S2 Quire 13 vs S3 Quire 20 | 0.925 | 0.931 |
Jorge_Stolfi > 20-05-2026, 03:44 PM
(19-05-2026, 10:25 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-05-2026, 10:03 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- You need a seed text (a "visible source") to start the process. (1)
- The modify step must respect the complex word structure. (2)
I think we can tie 1 and 2 together and say that if there is some template that all words should conform to (something like curve-line system + or one of your grammars), then 1 could be just generating a set of random seed words according to the template (seems easy, I did something like this in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in this thread) and 2 is just making sure modifications still conform to the template.
oshfdk > 20-05-2026, 04:06 PM
(20-05-2026, 03:44 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Word templates like mine do not capture all the constraints we see in the actual Voynichese lexicon. No matter how we define prefix, core, and suffix, these three parts are not independent. My model specifies a couple of constraints (the counts of benches and dealers) but there are more. Your own color tables show that, for one particular core, there are prefix-suffix pairs that are twice as common as expected, or half as common. I gave a couple of more dramatic examples of "skew squares" were Fr(AKX):Fr(BKX) is very different from Fr(AKY):Fr(BKY).
Jorge_Stolfi > 20-05-2026, 10:39 PM
(19-05-2026, 12:49 AM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your constructed language scenario ... makes predictions the VMS doesn't satisfy:
A constructed language dictionary produces consistent usage. If "daiin" means "heat," it should appear in consistent semantic contexts. In the VMS, "daiin" appears everywhere — in every section, next to every kind of word. No semantic clustering is detectable.
Quote:A constructed language doesn't show a continuous evolutionary gradient.
Quote:A constructed language doesn't show line-boundary production effects. If words have fixed meanings, their form shouldn't depend on line position. But some words appear almost exclusively at line starts or line ends.
Quote:A constructed language with semantic prefixes doesn't show prefix-suffix independence.
ReneZ > 20-05-2026, 11:37 PM
(20-05-2026, 03:44 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is still no explanation for how the Author could have created words with those hidden statistical anomalies, both for the seed text and during modification.
Jorge_Stolfi > 21-05-2026, 03:40 AM
(18-05-2026, 11:03 AM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However the flow of the writing suggests that the writer did not pause after each word to think of what ought to come next.
Jorge_Stolfi > 21-05-2026, 04:20 AM
(20-05-2026, 04:06 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While existing templates don't capture all words and the existing words only, hypothetically, if someone finds a relatively simple set of rules that would cover >95% of existing word types and would only produce < 5% of unregistered word types, is there a possibility to resolve all of this?
Torsten > 21-05-2026, 08:43 AM
(20-05-2026, 10:39 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have yet to see evidence that there is a "continuous evolutionary gradient" along the VMS.
(20-05-2026, 10:39 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 56 otedy 56 oteedy
2 ytedy 12 yteedy
12 ched 11 ches
10 shed 0 shes
119 chey 11 ches
77 shey 0 shes
50 dain 30 dair
12 rain 2 rair
Dunsel > 21-05-2026, 01:17 PM
(20-05-2026, 03:44 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is still no explanation for how the Author could have created words with those hidden statistical anomalies, both for the seed text and during modification.
(20-05-2026, 11:37 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let alone why a great majority of possible modifications are never made.
Dunsel > 21-05-2026, 02:12 PM
| Sheet | Closest Match | Pearson | Cosine | Mean |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Quire 1 Sheet 1 (q1s1) | ||||
| Quire 6 Sheet 2 (q6s2) | 0.738570 | 0.785728 | 0.762149 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 2 (q1s2) | 0.612324 | 0.701843 | 0.657084 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | 0.619659 | 0.693897 | 0.656778 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 2 (q1s2) | ||||
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | 0.666632 | 0.744950 | 0.705791 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.667659 | 0.742020 | 0.704840 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 4 (q3s4) | 0.638953 | 0.736955 | 0.687954 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 3 (q1s3) | ||||
| Quire 3 Sheet 1 (q3s1) | 0.528717 | 0.656501 | 0.592609 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.531632 | 0.626589 | 0.579111 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 1 (q1s1) | 0.496705 | 0.606720 | 0.551712 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 4 (q1s4) | ||||
| Quire 3 Sheet 4 (q3s4) | 0.638768 | 0.733743 | 0.686256 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.639366 | 0.723205 | 0.681285 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 1 (q4s1) | 0.648412 | 0.709008 | 0.678710 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 1 (q2s1) | ||||
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.711392 | 0.773835 | 0.742613 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.639688 | 0.710703 | 0.675196 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 4 (q5s4) | 0.607467 | 0.679974 | 0.643720 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | ||||
| Quire 2 Sheet 1 (q2s1) | 0.711392 | 0.773835 | 0.742613 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.686641 | 0.747322 | 0.716982 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 4 (q5s4) | 0.683149 | 0.740385 | 0.711767 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 3 (q2s3) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 4 (q5s4) | 0.639470 | 0.706742 | 0.673106 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.610292 | 0.697264 | 0.653778 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.613912 | 0.693052 | 0.653482 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 4 (q2s4) | ||||
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | 0.430707 | 0.573375 | 0.502041 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.424867 | 0.574041 | 0.499454 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 3 (q2s3) | 0.395196 | 0.577715 | 0.486455 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 1 (q3s1) | ||||
| Quire 1 Sheet 3 (q1s3) | 0.528717 | 0.656501 | 0.592609 | |
| Quire 19 Sheet 2 (q19s2) | 0.498225 | 0.621177 | 0.559701 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 1 (q1s1) | 0.494887 | 0.621925 | 0.558406 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 2 (q3s2) | ||||
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.509947 | 0.613904 | 0.561926 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.470679 | 0.596163 | 0.533421 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 1 (q4s1) | 0.472432 | 0.562973 | 0.517703 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 4 (q5s4) | 0.790320 | 0.825820 | 0.808070 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 1 (q4s1) | 0.785575 | 0.817966 | 0.801770 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 3 (q5s3) | 0.696172 | 0.752013 | 0.724092 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 4 (q3s4) | ||||
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | 0.718656 | 0.782494 | 0.750575 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.660336 | 0.737009 | 0.698673 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 2 (q1s2) | 0.638953 | 0.736955 | 0.687954 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 1 (q4s1) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 4 (q5s4) | 0.817946 | 0.843787 | 0.830866 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 3 (q5s3) | 0.803942 | 0.832919 | 0.818431 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.785575 | 0.817966 | 0.801770 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 2 (q4s2) | ||||
| Quire 13 Sheet 1 (q13s1) | 0.503905 | 0.586732 | 0.545318 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 2 (q5s2) | 0.464865 | 0.603391 | 0.534128 | |
| Quire 6 Sheet 3 (q6s3) | 0.461342 | 0.603957 | 0.532650 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 3 (q4s3) | ||||
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | 0.604012 | 0.697502 | 0.650757 | |
| Quire 6 Sheet 2 (q6s2) | 0.569787 | 0.666633 | 0.618210 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 4 (q3s4) | 0.549608 | 0.671661 | 0.610635 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 4 (q4s4) | ||||
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.639485 | 0.725273 | 0.682379 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 4 (q3s4) | 0.611928 | 0.719979 | 0.665954 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | 0.617309 | 0.704995 | 0.661152 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 1 (q5s1) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 2 (q5s2) | 0.675752 | 0.752361 | 0.714057 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 2 (q7s2) | 0.633491 | 0.729379 | 0.681435 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | 0.520811 | 0.583510 | 0.552161 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 2 (q5s2) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 1 (q5s1) | 0.675752 | 0.752361 | 0.714057 | |
| Quire 6 Sheet 3 (q6s3) | 0.619137 | 0.714398 | 0.666768 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 2 (q7s2) | 0.569341 | 0.674544 | 0.621943 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 3 (q5s3) | ||||
| Quire 4 Sheet 1 (q4s1) | 0.803942 | 0.832919 | 0.818431 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 4 (q5s4) | 0.726317 | 0.772944 | 0.749630 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.696172 | 0.752013 | 0.724092 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 4 (q5s4) | ||||
| Quire 4 Sheet 1 (q4s1) | 0.817946 | 0.843787 | 0.830866 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.790320 | 0.825820 | 0.808070 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 3 (q5s3) | 0.726317 | 0.772944 | 0.749630 | |
| Quire 6 Sheet 1 (q6s1) | ||||
| Quire 6 Sheet 3 (q6s3) | 0.412365 | 0.597777 | 0.505071 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 6 (q20s6) | 0.453805 | 0.543655 | 0.498730 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 1 (q13s1) | 0.444410 | 0.548235 | 0.496322 | |
| Quire 6 Sheet 2 (q6s2) | ||||
| Quire 1 Sheet 1 (q1s1) | 0.738570 | 0.785728 | 0.762149 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | 0.701692 | 0.759352 | 0.730522 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 4 (q3s4) | 0.644373 | 0.720588 | 0.682481 | |
| Quire 6 Sheet 3 (q6s3) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 2 (q5s2) | 0.619137 | 0.714398 | 0.666768 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 3 (q20s3) | 0.489479 | 0.580730 | 0.535104 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 2 (q4s2) | 0.461342 | 0.603957 | 0.532650 | |
| Quire 6 Sheet 4 (q6s4) | ||||
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.484621 | 0.609233 | 0.546927 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 1 (q2s1) | 0.426874 | 0.612524 | 0.519699 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 3 (q2s3) | 0.445476 | 0.588755 | 0.517115 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | ||||
| Quire 3 Sheet 4 (q3s4) | 0.718656 | 0.782494 | 0.750575 | |
| Quire 6 Sheet 2 (q6s2) | 0.701692 | 0.759352 | 0.730522 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 2 (q1s2) | 0.666632 | 0.744950 | 0.705791 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 2 (q7s2) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 1 (q5s1) | 0.633491 | 0.729379 | 0.681435 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 2 (q5s2) | 0.569341 | 0.674544 | 0.621943 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 3 (q20s3) | 0.545362 | 0.613511 | 0.579437 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 3 (q7s3) | ||||
| Quire 19 Sheet 2 (q19s2) | 0.494754 | 0.615074 | 0.554914 | |
| Quire 17 Sheet 1 (q17s1) | 0.472687 | 0.630905 | 0.551796 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 1 (q3s1) | 0.425250 | 0.600156 | 0.512703 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 4 (q7s4) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 4 (q5s4) | 0.499364 | 0.594524 | 0.546944 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.488857 | 0.597364 | 0.543111 | |
| Quire 2 Sheet 2 (q2s2) | 0.458215 | 0.590065 | 0.524140 | |
| Quire 8 Sheet 1 (q8s1) | ||||
| Quire 6 Sheet 3 (q6s3) | 0.257227 | 0.436389 | 0.346808 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 1 (q13s1) | 0.287917 | 0.398632 | 0.343275 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 3 (q20s3) | 0.270727 | 0.404701 | 0.337714 | |
| Quire 8 Sheet 2 (q8s2) | ||||
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | 0.443076 | 0.551508 | 0.497292 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 5 (q20s5) | 0.436977 | 0.547381 | 0.492179 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 1 (q5s1) | 0.413948 | 0.540531 | 0.477239 | |
| Quire 10 Sheet 1 (q10s1) | ||||
| Quire 8 Sheet 2 (q8s2) | 0.360871 | 0.520528 | 0.440699 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | 0.332859 | 0.437859 | 0.385359 | |
| Quire 11 Sheet 1 (q11s1) | 0.250932 | 0.508714 | 0.379823 | |
| Quire 11 Sheet 1 (q11s1) | ||||
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | 0.428510 | 0.507518 | 0.468014 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 5 (q20s5) | 0.381054 | 0.477716 | 0.429385 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 3 (q20s3) | 0.334403 | 0.437608 | 0.386005 | |
| Quire 12 Sheet 1 (q12s1) | ||||
| Quire 10 Sheet 1 (q10s1) | 0.091711 | 0.429769 | 0.260740 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | 0.167399 | 0.307395 | 0.237397 | |
| Quire 8 Sheet 2 (q8s2) | 0.107132 | 0.353295 | 0.230213 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 1 (q13s1) | ||||
| Quire 13 Sheet 4 (q13s4) | 0.876554 | 0.891779 | 0.884166 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 2 (q13s2) | 0.794608 | 0.818532 | 0.806570 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 5 (q13s5) | 0.790289 | 0.817012 | 0.803650 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 2 (q13s2) | ||||
| Quire 13 Sheet 3 (q13s3) | 0.870040 | 0.884687 | 0.877364 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 1 (q13s1) | 0.794608 | 0.818532 | 0.806570 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 1 (q20s1) | 0.735346 | 0.768024 | 0.751685 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 3 (q13s3) | ||||
| Quire 13 Sheet 2 (q13s2) | 0.870040 | 0.884687 | 0.877364 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 1 (q13s1) | 0.770537 | 0.797586 | 0.784062 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 5 (q13s5) | 0.721673 | 0.756828 | 0.739250 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 4 (q13s4) | ||||
| Quire 13 Sheet 1 (q13s1) | 0.876554 | 0.891779 | 0.884166 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 5 (q13s5) | 0.794138 | 0.818786 | 0.806462 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 2 (q13s2) | 0.685743 | 0.722164 | 0.703953 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 5 (q13s5) | ||||
| Quire 13 Sheet 4 (q13s4) | 0.794138 | 0.818786 | 0.806462 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 1 (q13s1) | 0.790289 | 0.817012 | 0.803650 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 1 (q20s1) | 0.731929 | 0.768713 | 0.750321 | |
| Quire 15 Sheet 1 (q15s1) | ||||
| Quire 19 Sheet 2 (q19s2) | 0.195890 | 0.415680 | 0.305785 | |
| Quire 4 Sheet 1 (q4s1) | 0.193468 | 0.377629 | 0.285549 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.152643 | 0.372895 | 0.262769 | |
| Quire 15 Sheet 2 (q15s2) | ||||
| Quire 19 Sheet 2 (q19s2) | 0.480138 | 0.614009 | 0.547073 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 3 (q7s3) | 0.359650 | 0.566087 | 0.462868 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 1 (q3s1) | 0.268906 | 0.510035 | 0.389471 | |
| Quire 17 Sheet 1 (q17s1) | ||||
| Quire 7 Sheet 3 (q7s3) | 0.472687 | 0.630905 | 0.551796 | |
| Quire 19 Sheet 2 (q19s2) | 0.400173 | 0.545924 | 0.473049 | |
| Quire 1 Sheet 3 (q1s3) | 0.388305 | 0.547121 | 0.467713 | |
| Quire 17 Sheet 2 (q17s2) | ||||
| Quire 5 Sheet 1 (q5s1) | 0.415730 | 0.605162 | 0.510446 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 3 (q20s3) | 0.458740 | 0.550560 | 0.504650 | |
| Quire 5 Sheet 2 (q5s2) | 0.412126 | 0.586891 | 0.499508 | |
| Quire 19 Sheet 1 (q19s1) | ||||
| Quire 19 Sheet 2 (q19s2) | 0.478109 | 0.610468 | 0.544288 | |
| Quire 7 Sheet 3 (q7s3) | 0.297804 | 0.520092 | 0.408948 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 3 (q3s3) | 0.280833 | 0.434393 | 0.357613 | |
| Quire 19 Sheet 2 (q19s2) | ||||
| Quire 7 Sheet 1 (q7s1) | 0.541257 | 0.627063 | 0.584160 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 4 (q3s4) | 0.523183 | 0.623006 | 0.573094 | |
| Quire 3 Sheet 1 (q3s1) | 0.498225 | 0.621177 | 0.559701 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 1 (q20s1) | ||||
| Quire 20 Sheet 6 (q20s6) | 0.765874 | 0.793804 | 0.779839 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 2 (q13s2) | 0.735346 | 0.768024 | 0.751685 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 5 (q13s5) | 0.731929 | 0.768713 | 0.750321 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 2 (q20s2) | ||||
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | 0.723869 | 0.774492 | 0.749180 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 5 (q20s5) | 0.700254 | 0.749052 | 0.724653 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 3 (q20s3) | 0.658746 | 0.725649 | 0.692198 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 3 (q20s3) | ||||
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | 0.740062 | 0.784679 | 0.762371 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 5 (q20s5) | 0.690327 | 0.740376 | 0.715352 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 2 (q20s2) | 0.658746 | 0.725649 | 0.692198 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | ||||
| Quire 20 Sheet 5 (q20s5) | 0.812893 | 0.840823 | 0.826858 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 3 (q20s3) | 0.740062 | 0.784679 | 0.762371 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 2 (q20s2) | 0.723869 | 0.774492 | 0.749180 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 5 (q20s5) | ||||
| Quire 20 Sheet 4 (q20s4) | 0.812893 | 0.840823 | 0.826858 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 6 (q20s6) | 0.770385 | 0.799424 | 0.784904 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 2 (q20s2) | 0.700254 | 0.749052 | 0.724653 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 6 (q20s6) | ||||
| Quire 20 Sheet 5 (q20s5) | 0.770385 | 0.799424 | 0.784904 | |
| Quire 20 Sheet 1 (q20s1) | 0.765874 | 0.793804 | 0.779839 | |
| Quire 13 Sheet 2 (q13s2) | 0.735210 | 0.762953 | 0.749082 |