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[split] full head in star-shaped rays
- [split] full head in star-shaped rays
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[split] full head in star-shaped rays
Bernd > Yesterday, 01:00 PM
BNCF, Fondo Nazionale II.II.62
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The sun resembles Taccola's 'cannon-star', and VM f70r2
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Now the big question is - was this star-sun design influenced by Taccola, or are both based on an older common ancestor?
Curiously, both this copy of Dati's La Sfera and Taccola's Palatino 766 came to BNCF from the 17th century Strozzi collection.
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RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
JustAnotherTheory > Yesterday, 02:25 PM
That is very interesting. If Taccola was inspired by Dati, then it no longer stands to reason that the author(s) of the VMS had to have had contact with Sigismund's court. -
RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
Bernd > Yesterday, 03:15 PM
All accessible Sfera copies in the database post-date Taccola's Palatino 766, but some have quite taccolaesque illustrations. I would assume they were influenced by Tacola and not the other way round. Very few Sfera copies have the sun-star. But we'd have to find older Sfera copies to see if the sun-star comes from there, or from Taccola. So far I haven't come across the mention that Taccula used Dati's works as reference. There are 3 contemporary Siena copies listed in the database, but none appears to be digitized.
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Urb.lat.1754 from 1481 contains a lot of illustrations that remind me of Taccola. The landscape and - the famous Taccola tree. But no sun-star, though the sun has rays dripping down like in Taccola's image. I'm fairly certain the artist of copied from Taccola, and not the other way round. Also Palatino766 contains much more potential VM reference imagery as Koen has showed.
Ricc.2261 also has a sun star but it's dating range is 1426-75.
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One possibility I'd like to explore is that the VM artist had access to an early Florentine Strozzi library which contained Palatino 766 or a rare copy of it, as well as all the other famous works the VM drew its inspiration from, including De Sfera. I think it's possible the VM artists copied the star chart you showed, the castles and the green waterbodies in Balneo from a Sfera copy he had access to. -
RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
DG97EEB > Yesterday, 03:32 PM
(Yesterday, 03:15 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All accessible Sfera copies in the database post-date Taccola's Palatino 766, but some have quite taccolaesque illustrations. I would assume they were influenced by Tacola and not the other way round. Very few Sfera copies have the sun-star. But we'd have to find older Sfera copies to see if the sun-star comes from there, or from Taccola. So far I haven't come across the mention that Taccula used Dati's works as reference. There are 3 contemporary Siena copies listed in the database, but none appears to be digitized.
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Urb.lat.1754 from 1481 contains a lot of illustrations that remind me of Taccola. The landscape and - the famous Taccola tree. But no sun-star, though the sun has rays dripping down like in Taccola's image. I'm fairly certain the artist of copied from Taccola, and not the other way round. Also Palatino766 contains much more potential VM reference imagery as Koen has showed.
Ricc.2261 also has a sun star but it's dating range is 1426-75.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
One possibility I'd like to explore is that the VM artist had access to an early Florentine Strozzi library which contained Palatino 766 or a rare copy of it, as well as all the other famous works the VM drew its inspiration from, including De Sfera. I think it's possible the VM artists copied the star chart you showed, the castles and the green waterbodies in Balneo from a Sfera copy he had access to.
The thing that's off in all of these is the stars.. the closest I've found to almost perfect replicas was one of the Taccolas but I can't find back the right thread...
How do you know these aren't contemporaneous? We don't know the production date of VMS. The one I linked to above says mid 15th century.. -
RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
Koen G > Yesterday, 04:12 PM
This type of sun might be of a broader Tuscan origin (Florentine? Sienese? Both?), but further investigation is required.
What makes these suns interesting for Voynich comparison is that they have a full head in the middle (with hair) rather than just a face and they are surrounded by a star shape.
I've also seen these in the work of Giovanni di Paolo, who was mainly active in Siena. This is from a 1440 illustrated Dante MS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Here's an later example from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by di Paolo. The saint is holding a star, which has a complete head and bundles of rays around it.
I suspect that answering the sun question will involve finding out where it first pops up in Italian (Tuscan?) art. It seems likely that Taccola was following trends of the time. The alternative is that individuals like di Paolo were inspired by Taccola's art style, and more specifically an image from a manuscript that likely remained in Siena after its completion. -
RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
Jimmy123 > Yesterday, 04:15 PM
Stars drom Konrad Kyeser are perfect match for stars in Voynich -
RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
Bernd > Yesterday, 05:19 PM
(Yesterday, 03:32 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How do you know these aren't contemporaneous? We don't know the production date of VMS. The one I linked to above says mid 15th century..
I was referring to Palatino 766. We know Taccola completed it on Jan 13th 1433, working on it mostly in 1432. None of the Sfera copies listed clearly pre-date Palatino 766. But I doubt Taccola, who was known to extensively copy from other sources like Kyeser invented the star-sun. And keep in mind that Palatino 766 is thought to have disappeared soon after it was completed and wasn't widely copied. So I doubt it was the source for Sfera copies. So likely there was an earlier source that inspired both. It would be great if we could pinpoint where and when this design popped up. So far I have not seen one clearly pre-dating 1433. I agree it's likely Tuscan. -
RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
R. Sale > Yesterday, 06:16 PM
It starts with the golden rays. This is Milan, 1385-1390.
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It's a sort of solar version of the cosmic boundary representation based on fire and light instead of clouds or blue pools.
Early depictions of the sun frequently use indented and/or dancetty patterns which are somewhat associated with fire. The golden rays seem to be a better depiction of light. -
RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
JustAnotherTheory > Yesterday, 06:38 PM
(Yesterday, 06:16 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It starts with the golden rays. This is Milan, 1385-1390.
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It's a sort of solar version of the cosmic boundary representation based on fire and light instead of clouds.
Early depictions of the sun frequently use indented and/or dancetty patterns with are somewhat associated with fire. The golden rays seem to be a better depiction of light.
This MS is interesting. Note the design of the water container, which has little doors/windows in its walls:
This is what we also see in the VMS:
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RE: La Sfera by Gregorio Dati
R. Sale > Yesterday, 07:07 PM
It's just a carved pattern. A better comparison with an arcaded patter is from Pizan.
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Note that this is the only VMs example with *nine* ladies. And this is the only VMs example of a half-arcaded tub or of anything similar. And it's the back part of the tub, "hidden away". The VMs artist is a trickster.