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The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
- The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
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RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Fabrizio Salani > 27-03-2026, 05:25 PM
(27-03-2026, 02:10 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Will be the easiest way to check all of W. Voynich‘s friends, neighbours and fans:
A friend who physically held the codex in his hands for a long time, only to copy it partially (21 of the first 26 pages), not even precisely and modifying the graphics, to send it to whom and for what purpose? We only have evidence of such a thing in the correspondence between Baresch and Kircher, and it is well-founded and proven; no other evidence has been found to date.
the one named A.G. should be the one who made a copy and sealed it so pompously…
I don't know, at the moment, it seems to me a more imaginative and forced hypothesis than the one from 1600. -
RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 27-03-2026, 06:46 PM
(27-03-2026, 05:25 PM)Fabrizio Salani Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A friend who physically held the codex in his hands for a long time, only to copy it partially (21 of the first 26 pages), not even precisely and modifying the graphics, to send it to whom and for what purpose? We only have evidence of such a thing in the correspondence between Baresch and Kircher, and it is well-founded and proven; no other evidence has been found to date.
[..]
- There is no proof that the pages 1-20 of this "set" ever existed.
- The tilde/titulus at "21" does not look written intentionally, can be ink trace or scrape as well.
- The "20 pages missing" story definitely started at 1912 latest.
= easy to produce a hoax "follower" page 21 as just a copy from existing folio then: nobody has to invent unknown content.
As I understood, you have this one piece?
- Even C14-testing of it's vellum may show that material is from 15th century -- but as you said yourself, it was bound into a book before
= easy to use an empty sheet from a completely different book as carrier for this copy.
- The W.Voynich circle had access to a mass of old books; sourcing 1 folio would have been simple and non-expensive for them
- some not-so-easy way would be: to erase content of a worthless page (the calcium) and re-use it
- With or without optical instruments: a copy of one page takes only a few hours maximum. Some changes in writing can rather result from a writer trying this for him completely unfamiliar alphabet.
A victorian-style wax seal was glued (with some cardboard) to the carrier?
- Best explanation might be someone at the beginning of 20th century still using that thing.
Ink, glue etc. have "natural" substances?
- Would expect that even for the first decades of 20th century.
I think it is the nicest to say about this copy that it was produced somewhen between 1912~194x (without bad intentions, maybe to try how fast 1 folio could be written or to have a working copy of at least this page).
But when reading that those seals in "victorian"-style went into sale again starting from 2013, I honestly get some Massimo-Gatta-vibes (edited to the correct name) -- you showed one of his fakes earlier here: so that guy played a least once with the VMS legend, obviously knowing enough details about the whole manuscript story. -
RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Koen G > 27-03-2026, 07:19 PM
(27-03-2026, 06:46 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco-Galla-vibes
I must have missed this, what's that about?
For me, the most damning evidence is the forensic analysis. I talked about the graphs with Joe Barabe, and while he is professionally hesitant to speculate, he does allow me to quote him on the following: "Barabe's assessment, based on the data he's seen thus far, is that a date of creation in the 1600s or before is highly unlikely."
In my personal view, this assessment is very conservative, but I understand that he does not want to commit to further statements without having access to the piece. This makes the fact that he still wants to go on the record as calling a 1600s date of creation "extremely unlikely" all the more relevant.
With everything considered, I think we should dare to take as a starting point that this parchment was only used for its current purpose some time after the manuscript resurfaced in the early 20th century.
The analysis of the pigments allows for the hypothesis of even more modern pigments, pushing us into the second half of the 20th century. But this is too speculative, so let's assume a century: the parchment was most likely inscribed between ca. 1912-2013. -
RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 27-03-2026, 07:35 PM
(27-03-2026, 07:19 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-03-2026, 06:46 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco-Galla-vibes
I must have missed this, what's that about?
[..]: the parchment was most likely inscribed between ca. 1912-2013.
Sorry, the guy was a Massimo Gatta, not Marco Galla. Here:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Jorge_Stolfi > 27-03-2026, 08:09 PM
(27-03-2026, 06:46 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is the nicest to say about this copy that it was produced somewhen between 1912~194x
Sorry, I must have missed this point, but why not after 194x? Say, after the D'Imperio book came out and the VMS became famous among the general public (rather than just among a few bibliophiles and codebreakers)?
Quote:(without bad intentions, maybe to try how fast 1 folio could be written or to have a working copy of at least this page).
I agree that it must have been without bad intentions. The beautification of the plant and the little care put on the text would have prevented it from passing as an antique thing. I still think it was an "art" project by a fan, for self enjoyment.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 27-03-2026, 08:42 PM
(27-03-2026, 08:09 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sorry, I must have missed this point, but why not after 194x? Say, after the D'Imperio book came out and the VMS became famous among the general public (rather than just among a few bibliophiles and codebreakers)?
Right, why not from D'Imperio on?
I have set this rather arbitrarily into somehow the 1940ies due to 2 reasons:
O'Neill and Friedman appeared on the scene, I wouldn't count them to an "inner circle" or relatives of W. Voynich anymore. At least Friedman and his team gave a different spin to it.
And after WW2 the availability of chemical glues increased, while "natural" compounds began to retreat.
(27-03-2026, 08:09 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree that it must have been without bad intentions. The beautification of the plant and the little care put on the text would have prevented it from passing as an antique thing. I still think it was an "art" project by a fan, for self enjoyment.
All the best, --stolfi
Yes, maybe there was surely some innocence and enthusiasm in the beginning of VMS 'research', so I prefer the good-will variant here. This copy even could have been produced upon a good facsimile of VMS -- no need to see the original for that. Could also explain some improvements/shifts of drawing and colouring. -
RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Fabrizio Salani > 27-03-2026, 09:06 PM
It always amazes me that this parchment continues to spark discussions, comments, and hypotheses. Everyone, rightly, has their own opinion; there are people who still believe me to be the author of the sheet, because it's easier to believe it and it's impossible (and I haven't even tried) to change their minds. Or they deny outright that it could have been created in the two obscure centuries of the manuscript's life, because they are unknown and therefore cannot be. That's fine, I have no problem whatsoever. Everything is exactly the same as with the manuscript and W.M. Voynich. In any case, a huge thank you to everyone for their efforts in meticulous research and study; it's an honor for me to have met you. -
RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Fabrizio Salani > 28-03-2026, 11:39 AM
(27-03-2026, 06:46 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-03-2026, 05:25 PM)Fabrizio Salani Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A friend who physically held the codex in his hands for a long time, only to copy it partially (21 of the first 26 pages), not even precisely and modifying the graphics, to send it to whom and for what purpose? We only have evidence of such a thing in the correspondence between Baresch and Kircher, and it is well-founded and proven; no other evidence has been found to date.
[..]
- There is no proof that the pages 1-20 of this "set" ever existed.
- The tilde/titulus at "21" does not look written intentionally, can be ink trace or scrape as well.
- The "20 pages missing" story definitely started at 1912 latest.
= easy to produce a hoax "follower" page 21 as just a copy from existing folio then: nobody has to invent unknown content.
As I understood, you have this one piece?
- Even C14-testing of it's vellum may show that material is from 15th century -- but as you said yourself, it was bound into a book before
= easy to use an empty sheet from a completely different book as carrier for this copy.
- The W.Voynich circle had access to a mass of old books; sourcing 1 folio would have been simple and non-expensive for them
- some not-so-easy way would be: to erase content of a worthless page (the calcium) and re-use it
- With or without optical instruments: a copy of one page takes only a few hours maximum. Some changes in writing can rather result from a writer trying this for him completely unfamiliar alphabet.
A victorian-style wax seal was glued (with some cardboard) to the carrier?
- Best explanation might be someone at the beginning of 20th century still using that thing.
Ink, glue etc. have "natural" substances?
- Would expect that even for the first decades of 20th century.
I think it is the nicest to say about this copy that it was produced somewhen between 1912~194x (without bad intentions, maybe to try how fast 1 folio could be written or to have a working copy of at least this page).
But when reading that those seals in "victorian"-style went into sale again starting from 2013, I honestly get some Massimo-Gatta-vibes (edited to the correct name) -- you showed one of his fakes earlier here: so that guy played a least once with the VMS legend, obviously knowing enough details about the whole manuscript story.
Yes I own this parchement.
WAX SEAL:
the whole composition is organic.
Sorry, but for the reasons I've already explained, I can't give the chemical composition of sealing wax, glue and cardboard.
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RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Koen G > 28-03-2026, 11:52 AM
Fabrizio, did you have any tests done on the cardboard's composition? -
RE: The origin of Fabrizio Salani's "AG" monagram
Fabrizio Salani > 28-03-2026, 12:44 PM
(28-03-2026, 11:52 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Fabrizio, did you have any tests done on the cardboard's composition?
Yes, with the microscope to analyze the fiber and it is flax with other plants and animal glue (basically from rags), but it is not possible to know its dating.