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Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

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• Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  KamCode > 7 hours ago

  (8 hours ago)Typpi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (8 hours ago)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (8 hours ago)Typpi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (11 hours ago)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Please read the paper and the github i

  
  The GitHub is 99% AI slop.
  
  Can you just summarize your points and research here?
  
  The GitHub is extremely verbose with little substance.

  
  
  yeah the github readme is ai generated, alot of this project aswell as the Voynich manuscript is how to use ai effectively as a tool and not a chatbot,  guilty. ill clean it up.
  short version:
  i think voynich is medieval sinhala (elu) written phonetically. i visited sri lanka, noticed old sinhala letterforms look like voynich glyphs. built a decoder that maps EVA characters to 14 sinhala phonemes. about 200 lines of python.
  the evidence that its not random:

  • decoded keywords cluster by manuscript section. plant words on plant pages, preparation terms on balneo pages. the decoder doesnt know which section its on. Z=31.81 against random shuffles, none of 1000 shuffles came close.
    
  • EVA reads better right to left, decoded text reads better left to right. sinhala is left to right. the encoding flips directionality which is what you'd expect from an abugida.
    
  • cross-modal: decoder outputs medical terms that match what the illustrations show, spatially. it cant see the pictures.
    
  • ablation: remove rules from the decoder and results degrade. random decoders dont reproduce the clustering.
    

  what it doesnt do: produce fluent readable sinhala. dictionary hit rate is around 50%. entropy doesnt reach natural language levels. i need a medieval sinhala scholar to evaluate the output properly.
  the decoder itself is in h12_decoder.py if anyone wants to skip the readme and just look at the code.
  

  ---

  pick a couple of folios i can put them through the decoder and give you the raw output

  
  That's much easier to follow.
  
  Can you decode this?

  
  can you give me the exact folio please
  

  ---

  can you give me the exact folio please and i would be happy to

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  Typpi > 7 hours ago

  (7 hours ago)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the decoder doesnt know which section its on. Z=31.81 against random shuffles, none of 1000 shuffles came close.

  
  I thought the decoded didn't need to know what page it was on?

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  KamCode > 7 hours ago

  (7 hours ago)Typpi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (7 hours ago)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the decoder doesnt know which section its on. Z=31.81 against random shuffles, none of 1000 shuffles came close.

  
  I thought the decoded didn't need to know what page it was on?

  
  its EVA - Decoder - Output not Image - OCR - EVA - Decoder - Output 
  
  all the info is in the github if you can ignore the (ai slop) that i used to make things much faster apologise for that, and you can test any page you want at your convenience 
  but if you want to give me the EVA or folio number i can do it for you.
  
  thanks 

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  eggyk > 7 hours ago

  (Yesterday, 04:01 PM)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the text was probably originally written on palm leaves which is why you see very few straight lines in the script — straight lines crack the leaf.

  
  q , k , t , p ch
  
  The text is full of straight lines, with the most notable characters like gallows explicitly being made from long, straight vertical lines. 
  
  

  (8 hours ago)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the dictionary is modern sinhala, not medieval. thats a fair weakness to point out. medieval elu vocabulary would be different and i havent been able to source a proper historical elu dictionary yet. thats one reason i want a sinhala linguist involved, someone who knows the old forms.

  
  The dictionary "sinhala_dictionary.txt", how confident are you that it's correct? The first words listed are:
  
  "a, aa, aaa, aaaa, aaaaa, aaaaaa, aaaaaaaa, aaaah"
  
  It doesn't give a lot of confidence. I don't mind using AI for certain tasks, but are you accepting AI output/input as fact and running with it?

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  KamCode > 7 hours ago

  Here is a example everyone i agree alot of ai was used for documents etc the decoder is very straight forward you can take a look, its work in progress i encourage everyone to test the theory and run the same tests everything is open i am not hiding anything 
  
  
  Folio f85r2 — Full EVA, Elu, and English decode                                                                                                                               
   
    Rosette fold-out panel. Quire N (XIV). Currier Language B, Hand 3.                                                                                                           
    Stolfi labels this "The Four Ages of Man." Circular diagram with outer text ring, inner text ring, and four sectors each containing a figure and paragraph text.           
                                                                                                                                                                                 
    The four figures (Stolfi's descriptions): West — man with flower in hand. North — man with pointing finger. East — child with object in hand. South — old man with chain and
    staff.
  
    Outer ring of text
  
    f85r2.C1.1
    EVA:  odchdy . otedy . opoees . ar . chcthy . otchdy . otedy . otar . chepaiin . otadar . otodaiin . opoiin . otaiin . qopchchs . otchedy . olkaiin . odar . aloees . otchedy .
    qotedaiin . odar . octhody . shedaiin . olaiin . olfor . daiin . ol . lkech . os . aiin . otchdy . dar . otees . ofaiin . chcphdar
    Elu:  udada . uteda . upueesa . ara . tha . utada . uteda . utara . epena . utadara . utudena . upuiina . utena . upasa . uteda . ulagena . udara . alueesa . uteda . utedena .
    udara . uthuda . medena . ulena . ulacura . gena . ula . lagea . usa . ena . utada . gara . uteesa . ucena . phadara
    up-and | wet-decoction | head/front; lord | having done | place | risen today | wet-decoction | upon-ra | coming | upward-child | give | — | coming | sub-/secondary |
    wet-decoction | water-take | belly | head/front; lord | wet-decoction | being drawn/pulled | belly | and-give | this-give | — | water | take | water | ghee | height | coming |
    risen today | regarding | head/front; lord | — | five-pain
  
    West sector — man with flower in hand
  
    f85r2.P.1
    EVA:  okees . olaiin . qokal . chdy . sary
    Elu:  ugeesa . ulena . ugala . da . sara
    own | — | ground | and | essence
  
    f85r2.P.2
    EVA:  qokshedy . qodain . chckhy . ykeedy . chedy
    Elu:  ugameda . udaina . kha . ageeda . eda
    up-fat | — | cavity | and | then
  
    f85r2.P.3
    EVA:  ar . aiin . ckhedy . or . ain . olchey . qokal . shedy
    Elu:  ara . ena . kheda . ura . aina . ulea . ugala . meda
    having done | coming | — | upon | — | ghee | ground | fat
  
    f85r2.P.4
    EVA:  qokeody . qoekedy . dody . csedy . qodaiin
    Elu:  ugeuda . uegeda . guda . cseda . udena
    THE-processed upward | the-and | jaggery | — | having given
  
    f85r2.P.5
    EVA:  los . ar . shedy . qokshey . qoseey . or . aiinog
    Elu:  lusa . ara . meda . ugamea . useea . ura . enu
    — | having done | fat | up-honey | ghee | upon | —
  
    f85r2.P.5a
    EVA:  ol . lcheol . chol . ol . sheoly
    Elu:  ula . leula . ula . ula . meula
    water | water | water | water | this-water
  
    North sector — man with pointing finger
  
    f85r2.P.6
    EVA:  sain . or . or . aiin . opchdy
    Elu:  saina . ura . ura . ena . upada
    uncertain | upon | upon | coming | arise/be born
  
    f85r2.P.7
    EVA:  qotor . sheedy . shodaiin . olfar . ary
    Elu:  utura . meeda . mudena . ulacara . ara
    season/weather | fat | — | — | having done
  
    f85r2.P.8
    EVA:  dair . sheo . oraiin . chol . daiin
    Elu:  gaira . meu . urena . ula . gena
    ra | — | — | water | take
  
    f85r2.P.9
    EVA:  ockhdor . olkor . shoral
    Elu:  ukhadura . ulagura . murala
    absorb/draw in | water-teacher | watch
  
    f85r2.P.10
    EVA:  sosees
    Elu:  suseesa
    with/at
  
    East sector — child with object in hand
  
    f85r2.P.11
    EVA:  pchedeey . olkey . qokedy . sheos . fcheey
    Elu:  pedeea . ulagea . ugeda . meusa . ceea
    — | water-fat-extract | dried drug | this-height | ghee
  
    f85r2.P.12
    EVA:  otchedy . chotey . qocthey . oteey . ol . oloeorain
    Elu:  uteda . utea . uthea . uteea . ula . ulueuraina
    wet-decoction | ghee | ghee | root-liquid | water | bibhitaki
  
    f85r2.P.13
    EVA:  daiin . qotaiin . tchedy . otedy . qotchdy . chckhey
    Elu:  gena . utena . teda . uteda . utada . khea
    take | coming | crude decoction | wet-decoction | risen today | ghee
  
    f85r2.P.14
    EVA:  qtchedy . qodar . qotedar . qokar . qotchd . qotom
    Elu:  teda . udara . utedara . ugara . utada . utu
    crude decoction | belly | THE-decoction-rajas | throat | risen today | —
  
    f85r2.P.15
    EVA:  soiis . aiin . shedaiin . chokcod
    Elu:  suiisa . ena . medena . ugacuda
    — | coming | this-give | up-
  
    South sector — old man with chain and staff
  
    f85r2.P.16
    EVA:  otchs . shedor . chey . sorain
    Elu:  utasa . medura . ea . suraina
    upon-own | — | ghee | sura
  
    f85r2.P.17
    EVA:  or . shedy . tedy . sodaiiin . chy
    Elu:  ura . meda . teda . sudeina . a
    upon | fat | crude decoction | — | not
  
    f85r2.P.18
    EVA:  ytedar . chs . aiin . arody
    Elu:  atedara . sa . ena . aruda
    distal-decoction-pain | own | coming | —
  
    f85r2.P.19
    EVA:  ypshedy . dar . chedy . or . am
    Elu:  apameda . gara . eda . ura . a
    and | regarding | then | upon | -m
  
    f85r2.P.20
    EVA:  oteey . qodain . odain . an . chey
    Elu:  uteea . udaina . udaina . ana . ea
    root-liquid | — | — | — | ghee
  
    f85r2.P.21
    EVA:  orar . oldar . ain
    Elu:  urara . uladara . aina
    upon-ra | water-pain | —
  
    Inner ring of text
  
    f85r2.C2.1
    EVA:  okees . ochar . otedar . ochedy . otody . olchedy . otchdo . ar . or . air . ol . otees . ar . ar . am
    Elu:  ugeesa . uara . utedara . ueda . utuda . uleda . utadu . ara . ura . aira . ula . uteesa . ara . ara . a
    own | u-having done | THE-decoction-rajas | u-then | season/weather-and | and | upon | having done | upon | iron | water | head/front; lord | having done | having done | -m
  
    What to notice
  
    The text is labelled by sector in Stolfi's transcription. The content in each sector maps to the figure depicted there:
  
    - West (plant holder): "ground," "essence," "fat," "ghee," "jaggery," "honey" — raw ingredient preparation. Then P.5a: "water water water water this-water" — labelling the
    blue water in the central circle.
    - North (pointing man): "absorb/draw in," "water-teacher," "watch" — the master/instructor directing.
    - East (child with object): "wet-decoction," "crude decoction," "root-liquid," "bibhitaki," "ghee," "throat" — the finished preparation. The object in hand is the medicine.
    - South (chain/staff figure): "fat," "crude decoction," "ghee," "sura" — processing. Chains may be straining cloths used in Ayurvedic kashaya filtration.
  
    The decoded text produces pharmaceutical vocabulary that matches the spatial position and depicted activity of each figure independently.
  
    ---
    That's the full raw decode for f85r2 — EVA, Elu transliteration, and English gloss for every line, sector by sector.

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  KamCode > 7 hours ago

  (7 hours ago)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (Yesterday, 04:01 PM)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the text was probably originally written on palm leaves which is why you see very few straight lines in the script — straight lines crack the leaf.

  
  q , k , t , p ch
  
  The text is full of straight lines, with the most notable characters like gallows explicitly being made from long, straight vertical lines. 
  
  

  (8 hours ago)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the dictionary is modern sinhala, not medieval. thats a fair weakness to point out. medieval elu vocabulary would be different and i havent been able to source a proper historical elu dictionary yet. thats one reason i want a sinhala linguist involved, someone who knows the old forms.

  
  The dictionary "sinhala_dictionary.txt", how confident are you that it's correct? The first words listed are:
  
  "a, aa, aaa, aaaa, aaaaa, aaaaaa, aaaaaaaa, aaaah"
  
  It doesn't give a lot of confidence. I don't mind using AI for certain tasks, but are you accepting AI output/input as fact and running with it?

  
  hi sorry for not being clear i am saying the author originally would of made there notes from spoken word onto palm leaves, i believe it was copied from those to vellum some time later months/years to preserve them, so originally it would of been no straight lines mainly loops, the text now is a hybrid, also ill explain the dicitonary below its easier to take the explanation from ai as alot to retype in my own words, please dont mind
  
  The dictionary: Fair challenge. The entries starting with "a, aa, aaa, aaaa, aaaah" look like junk but they're mostly not — "aaabharana" is ābharaṇa (ornament), "aaachaarya" 
    is ācārya (teacher), "aaadharana" is ādhāraṇa (support). The triple-a is a romanization artifact: "aa" represents long ā, so a word starting with ā + another a-initial       
    syllable becomes "aaa." There are about 269 entries starting with "aaa" out of 1,470,278 total — less than 0.02%. The first handful ("a, aa, aaa, aaaa, aaaaaaaa, aaaah") are 
    genuine noise — 32 entries total of repeated single characters in the entire file.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                 
    The dictionary is a computationally-derived modern Sinhala romanized wordlist with full morphological inflections (beheth, behetha, behethak, behethaka, behethakata... =
    medicine + case/number suffixes). It contains real Sinhala vocabulary including medical terms (roga, aushadha, vaidya, kashaya, churna, ghrita, sneha). It is not AI-generated.
  
    That said — the dictionary being modern is a real limitation, as I acknowledged. And you're right to push on data quality. I should document the dictionary source explicitly
    in the paper. It currently doesn't say where it came from and it should.
  
  thanks i will be offline till the morning but happy to answer more and any questions then thanks

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  eggyk > 7 hours ago

  (7 hours ago)KamCode Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.hi sorry for not being clear i am saying the author originally would of made there notes from spoken word onto palm leaves, i believe it was copied from those to vellum some time later months/years to preserve them, so originally it would of been no straight lines mainly loops, the text now is a hybrid, also ill explain the dicitonary below its easier to take the explanation from ai as alot to retype in my own words, please dont mind
  
  The dictionary: Fair challenge. The entries starting with "a, aa, aaa, aaaa, aaaah" look like junk but they're mostly not — "aaabharana" is ābharaṇa (ornament), "aaachaarya" 
    is ācārya (teacher), "aaadharana" is ādhāraṇa (support). The triple-a is a romanization artifact: "aa" represents long ā, so a word starting with ā + another a-initial       
    syllable becomes "aaa." There are about 269 entries starting with "aaa" out of 1,470,278 total — less than 0.02%. The first handful ("a, aa, aaa, aaaa, aaaaaaaa, aaaah") are 
    genuine noise — 32 entries total of repeated single characters in the entire file.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                 
    The dictionary is a computationally-derived modern Sinhala romanized wordlist with full morphological inflections (beheth, behetha, behethak, behethaka, behethakata... =
    medicine + case/number suffixes). It contains real Sinhala vocabulary including medical terms (roga, aushadha, vaidya, kashaya, churna, ghrita, sneha). It is not AI-generated.
  
    That said — the dictionary being modern is a real limitation, as I acknowledged. And you're right to push on data quality. I should document the dictionary source explicitly
    in the paper. It currently doesn't say where it came from and it should.
  
  thanks i will be offline till the morning but happy to answer more and any questions then thanks

  
  Did you genuinely just respond to my criticism of running with whatever AI generates with.. an AI generated paragraph explaining why? 
  
  And the AI response is as lackluster as I would expect, saying its a "computationally-derived" wordlist that is "not AI-generated". It even admits that it "doesn't say where it came from".

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  pjburkshire > 7 hours ago

  I would like to see Quire 1, f2v.  Most people call this the waterlily page.

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  KamCode > 6 hours ago

  (7 hours ago)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like to see Quire 1, f2v.  Most people call this the waterlily page.

  
  hi my pleasure do not mind the computer generation, i am trying to make this very clear in the group that i am using AI to run (my code and output a answer) it is not hallucinating i understand enough about actual ai architecture to know what i am doing i do not blindly trust a chatbot LLM i use custom designed model weights for various tasks aswell as FM, the code is available on github for ppl who are comfortable using python 
  
   
  
  Line-by-line decode                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                 
    f2v.P.1                                                                                                                                                                       
    EVA:  kooiin . cheo . pchor . otaiin . o . dain . chor-dair . shty
    Elu:  kuuiina . eu . pura . utena . u . gaina . ura-gaira . mata
    — | — | crush/pound | coming | — | bring | — | self-for
  
    f2v.P.2
    EVA:  kcho . kchy . sho . shol . qotcho . loeees . qoty-chor . daiin
    Elu:  ku . ka . mu . mula . utu . lueeesa . uta-ura . gena
    — | — | — | root | season/weather | eye | — | take
  
    f2v.P.3
    EVA:  otchy . chor . lshy . chol . chody . chodain-chcthy . daiin
    Elu:  uta . ura . lama . ula . uda . udaina-tha . gena
    upon | upon | having-done-self | water | up | — | take
  
    f2v.P.4
    EVA:  sho . cholo . cheor . chodaiin
    Elu:  mu . ulu . eura . udena
    — | bibhitaki | ra | having given
  
    f2v.P.5
    EVA:  kchor . shy . daiiin . chckhoy-s . shey . dor . chol . daiin
    Elu:  kura . ma . geina . khua-sa . mea . gura . ula . gena
    hoof/boiled rice | self | — | — | honey | teacher | water | take
  
    f2v.P.6
    EVA:  dor . chol . chor . chol . keol . chy . chty-daiin . otchor . chan
    Elu:  gura . ula . ura . ula . geula . a . ta-gena . utura . ana
    teacher | water | upon | water | water | not | — | season/weather-ra | various
  
    f2v.P.7
    EVA:  daiin . chotchey . qoteeey . chokeos-chees . chr . cheaiin
    Elu:  gena . utea . uteeea . ugeusa-eesa . ra . eena
    take | ghee | ghee | — | rajas | —
  
    f2v.P.8
    EVA:  chokoishe . chor . cheol . chol . dolody
    Elu:  uguime . ura . eula . ula . guluda
    — | upon | having-done | water | and
  
    Notes
  
    49 words total, 39 translated (80%), 10 gaps.
  
    This is a short folio — only 8 lines of text beside the illustration. The decoded vocabulary is: root, water (6x), ghee (2x), honey, crush/pound, take (3x), bibhitaki
    (Terminalia bellirica), season/weather, upon, self, bring, teacher. Standard Ayurvedic preparation vocabulary.
  
    The word "upula" (blue water lily, Nymphaea — the Sinhala name for this plant) does NOT appear on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. itself. It does appear 6 times on f3r, the next folio. The herbal plant
    guide assigns "ata" (Datura/custard apple) as the top decoded plant name for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. based on frequency, not "upula." So this is an honest non-match: the commonly identified
    "waterlily page" does not decode to contain the Sinhala word for water lily on that specific folio.
  
    What the text does contain: root, bibhitaki, water, ghee, honey, crush — a preparation using root material. Whether that root is water lily rhizome or something else, the text
    alone doesn't specify on this folio. 
  
  there is glossing missing as i am looking for someone who understands ELU

• RE: Please help :-) Ablation-tested phonological decoder (EVA → Elu-Sinhala)

  pjburkshire > 6 hours ago

  Sorry, but I need a translator for your translator.  This doesn't make a bit of sense to me.  It looks like word-salad and not very tasty.
  
    — | — | crush/pound | coming | — | bring | — | self-for
    — | — | — | root | season/weather | eye | — | take
    upon | upon | having-done-self | water | up | — | take
    — | bibhitaki | ra | having given
  
    hoof/boiled rice | self | — | — | honey | teacher | water | take
    teacher | water | upon | water | water | not | — | season/weather-ra | various
    take | ghee | ghee | — | rajas | —
    — | upon | having-done | water | and
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