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I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
- I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
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I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
JustAnotherTheory > 7 hours ago
As some of you might know, I am a big supporter of the hypothesis that the VM has Arabic/Muslim influences, especially in the balneary section, which I believe to be Arabic Hammams (link to thread: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). In this vein, I searched contemporary (14-15th century) Arabic manuscripts to see if there is something that ressembles the VM. I believe I have found something of interest.
The Kitab al-Bulan (or so-called Book of Wonders) is a late 14th century manuscript, more info here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Here is an example of Voynichese characters in one of the folios:
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Note the gallows-like character on the right hand side as well as the other clearly non-Arabic symbols that closely ressemble Voynichese. Here is another example:
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As you can see, there is one of the gallows on underlined text in the center-right, as well as multiple characters that are in the VM that appear in the figure on the left hand side. Given that this text is written exclusively in Arabic, this seems odd, to say the least.
You can find a full scanned copy here:
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Here are a few interesting folios:
- Folio 72: more Voynichese characters
- Folio 78: several gallows-like characters
- Folio 255: some kind of translation table
- Folio 365: text with Voynich-like glyphs
Additionally, there is a weird ressemblance between the way the stars/dots are placed in folios 339 to 350, which closely ressemble the alignment of stars in the VM folio f68v1.
Is it possible that the symbols are some kind of proto-Voynichese encoding? Perhaps someone with the ability to read Arabic could try to parse the folios that look like translation tables. It would be interesting to understand what the author(s) were trying to do there. Maybe a cipher of some kind?
EDIT: The post somehow got published before I finished typing. Sorry for the many edits. - Folio 72: more Voynichese characters
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RE: I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
nablator > 6 hours ago
(7 hours ago)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is it possible that this is some kind of proto-Voynichese encoding? What do you think?
These are examples of magical "caractères à lunettes" (French, not sure how to translate properly; it means characters that look a bit like glasses, it's just a structural analogy, no deep meaning) that are found in magical manuscripts such as the Latin Picatrix, a translation from the original Arabic. See Mary D'Imperio The Voynich Manuscript: An Elegant Enigma.
It is unlikely that the gallows are related. The resemblance may be coincidental: most of the Voynich glyphs look like some known letters, ligatures, numerals and symbols.
The VMS is not similar to books of magic of any type: Arabic and Salomonic magic books have talismans, incantations and these magical characters with loops. There are again some superficial resemblances with circular diagrams but not enough to call any of them a match. -
RE: I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
Jorge_Stolfi > 6 hours ago
(7 hours ago)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As some of you might know, I am a big supporter of the hypothesis that the VM has Arabic/Muslim influences, especially in the balneary section, which I believe to be Arabic Hammams (link to thread: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). ... The Kitab al-Bulan ...
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(Folio 78: several gallows-like characters)
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Indeed, several of the letters of that made-up "Djiin script" resemble VMS characters.
However, the VMS characters are very simple (1 to 3 simple pen strokes), so we can expect many chance resemblances to other alphabets. Like a and o resemble Latin lowercase 'a' and 'o', f resembles 'P', y resembles '9' or the medieval abbreviation of '-us', d looks like '8'...
Quote:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Folio 72: more Voynichese characters
- Folio 255: some kind of translation table
- Folio 365: text with Voynich-like glyphs
I see only ordinary Arabic characters on those pages.
Quote:Additionally, there is a weird ressemblance between the way the stars/dots are placed in folios 339 to 350, which closely ressemble the alignment of stars in the VM folio f68v1.
Sorry, which stars/dots are you referring to? I see only ordinary Arabic writing (with vowel marks) on those pages.
I would say that the demonic alphabet is intruguing and I will look more into that book. But I still don't see any strong connection...
Al the best, --stolfi - Folio 72: more Voynichese characters
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RE: I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
JustAnotherTheory > 6 hours ago
(6 hours ago)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(7 hours ago)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is it possible that this is some kind of proto-Voynichese encoding? What do you think?
These are examples of magical "caractères à lunettes" (French, not sure how to translate properly; it means characters that look a bit like glasses, it's just a structural analogy, no deep meaning) that are found in magical manuscripts such as the Latin Picatrix, a translation from the original Arabic. See Mary D'Imperio The Voynich Manuscript: An Elegant Enigma.
It is unlikely that the gallows are related. The resemblance may be coincidental: most of the Voynich glyphs look like some known letters, numerals or symbols.
The VMS is not similar to books of magic of any type: Arabic and Salomonic magic books have talismans, incantations and these magical characters with loops. There are again some superficial resemblances with circular diagrams but not enough to call any of them a match.
Thank you for this information. I had no idea these were actually so widespread. But then what about the other characters that look like the Italian numerals, also used in the VM? Like the upside down V (for 7), or the loop (which is the 4), ... These also appear in the Book of Wonders. -
RE: I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
JustAnotherTheory > 6 hours ago
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RE: I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
Jorge_Stolfi > 5 hours ago
(6 hours ago)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Stolfi, sorry for not being so clear. Here is an example snippet of the stars/dots that I meant : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thanks! But, again, stars and dots appear on (literally) tens of thousands of medieval manuscripts.
The VMS stars have a variable number or points, from 6 to 10. I am not sure, but there may be one or two with 5 and with 11 points. Maybe those numbers denote stellar magnitudes or some other information; but considering the "artistic capabilities" of the Scribe, I think it is more likely that the number of rays is just random variation.
Quote:Sorry for the crappy editing.
No need to apologize. This MyBB is absolutely the worst forum software I have seen since I first used the Internet in 1979, when "forum" was just a mailing list. It seems to have been derived from some other forum package, but every "feature" in it has been crappified to an unbelievable degree. Especially the message editor: I have spent hours fixing spaces and line breaks that it kept changing with no rhyme or reason, even in program code...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
nablator > 4 hours ago
(6 hours ago)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is an example snippet of the stars/dots that I meant :
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
These dots are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. figures: not a good structural match to the stars in f68v1. -
RE: I found Voynich characters in a 14th century Arabic manuscript
JustAnotherTheory > 1 hour ago
(4 hours ago)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These dots are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. figures: not a good structural match to the stars in f68v1.
Fascinating. One can learn so much by researching the VM.
Thanks for everyone's input, this has been enlightening.
Thanks for that!