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New images: Marci letter wax
- New images: Marci letter wax
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
RobGea > 07-01-2026, 10:07 PM
There is probably more about the discovery of the 1665 Marci letter in some correspondence somewhere
but this is the only reference to its discovery that i've read about and never heard of photos showing it actually attached to the vms.
Wilfrid Voynich Wrote:It was not until some time after the manuscript came into my hands that i read the document bearing the date 1665 (or 1666),
which was attached to the front cover.
Because of its late date i had regarded it as of no consequence and therefore neglected it during my first examination
of the manuscript.
Voynich, Wilfrid M.: A Preliminary Sketch of the History of the Roger Bacon Cipher Manuscript. In: Transactions of the College of Physicians of Philadelphia, Vol. 43, 1921, page 416.
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Jorge_Stolfi > 07-01-2026, 10:11 PM
(07-01-2026, 09:47 PM)asteckley Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it wouldn't really change it that much
I am asking because, in Lisa's photos, there seems to be a mismatch between the wax seals on the letter and the yellowish stains on the inside cover. The shape and color don't quite match, the angle of the line between the two stains is strange, and their separation seems to be short by a small but significant amount.
Moreover, that sheet of paper lining the cover is quite recent, isn't it? IIRC, Wilfrid was in the habit of removing the lining of covers, in the hope of finding valuable letters reused as scrap. And one can see the remnants of the original lining at the bottom, about 2 cm below the edge of the current lining. No?
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
asteckley > 07-01-2026, 10:26 PM
(07-01-2026, 10:11 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(07-01-2026, 09:47 PM)asteckley Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it wouldn't really change it that much
I am asking because, in Lisa's photos, there seems to be a mismatch between the wax seals on the letter and the yellowish stains on the inside cover. The shape and color don't quite match, the angle of the line between the two stains is strange, and their separation seems to be short by a small but significant amount.
Moreover, that sheet of paper lining the cover is quite recent, isn't it? IIRC, Wilfrid was in the habit of removing the lining of covers, in the hope of finding valuable letters reused as scrap. And one can see the remnants of the original lining at the bottom, about 2 cm below the edge of the current lining. No?
All the best, --stolfi
ACTUALLY... I just noticed this: the fact that the shape and color of the marks don't match is a little odd, but it's hard to say how the bleed through the paper would occur and what it would do to the resulting color of the marks left on the cover. BUT, there is a much bigger problem.
Looking at the photograph that Lisa took showing the alignment, it makes no sense at all that the wax marks on the letter lined up with those marks on the inside cover of the VMS. To do so, the letter would have had to be unfolded in a way that is clearly against the folds that it has been folded in and then the letter would also have had to extend outside the range of the VMS cover. It really does not make sense that those marks have anything to do with the wax residue on the letter itself.
[ADDED: Actually, Lisa did point this problem out (saying "and it's difficult to see how the letter could have been folded and laid into the manuscript in such a way as to leave those stains."). I just didn't see the extent of the problem till looking closer at the letter.] -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
ReneZ > 08-01-2026, 12:02 AM
There are several problems with this.
1. The modern cover is (almost certainly) not the one that it had when Marci sent the book.
2. The inside cover we see now is (also almost certainly) not how it was when Voynich received the MS.
There must have been a paper pastedown, and some stuffing. Voynich was known (already in 1908 - before he got the Jesuit manuscripts) to remove these and check the contents for 'hidden treasures'. He found quite a few such treasures.
Here is an example from the same collection, that did not pass through Voynich's hands, that shows how the MS would have looked when Voynich first got it:
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Remnants of what Voynich tore off are still visible, and these do not seem to be from the Marci letter.
The pencilled J1022, Voynich's catalogue number, was written on top of these remnants.
There are several different ways how to fill in the missing steps. The orange marks on the inside of the cover are a bit hard to explain, as there would have been stuffing there. Unless some item with wax was part of the stuffing. Perhaps even the Marci letter itself? That is not impossible, but seems unlikely. Or the marks came after the pastedown and stuffing were removed?
Here are two examples of how Marci folded some of his other letters to Kircher (from APUG 557, f65 and f124).
We can't be sure, but if Marci folded the letter like this, and then either he changed his mind, or a a later owner refolded it to fit onto the front cover, we seem to get roughly what the letter looks like now.
The precise purpose of the wax seals on the letter remain unclear and may also be the result of two events. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
asteckley > 08-01-2026, 12:42 AM
(08-01-2026, 12:02 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are several problems with this.
These may be valid points, although it is pure speculation to say that the book was modified to any significant degree by Voynich -- is there any indication anywhere --in correspondence or articles or anything -- that any such modifications were made (by Voynich or anyone else) since 1912?
1. The modern cover is (almost certainly) not the one that it had when Marci sent the book.
2. The inside cover we see now is (also almost certainly) not how it was when Voynich received the MS.
But in any case, it would not explain any scenario where the letter would fit inside the VMS to produce those markings (unless the previous speculated cover was substantially larger than the folio pages of the manuscript itself which seems very unrealistic.) The two red wax markings on the letter are the result of the letter being folded along a vertical line between the two, so that the two meet. The letter has been unfolded from that position to produce the alignment that is seen in Lisa's photograph. And separate from that geometric problem, the letter is clearly longer in the direction from the one red blotch to the upper left edge of the letter than is the distance from the yellowish mark to the top of the inside cover, so the edge of the letter would have to extend beyond the top of the inside cover (as can be seen in the photograph) -- There is just no way that the the letter cannot be placed in the cover in a way to make either of the yellowish marks line up with the red wax residues. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
asteckley > 08-01-2026, 12:50 AM
(08-01-2026, 12:02 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There must have been a paper pastedown, and some stuffing. Voynich was known (already in 1908 - before he got the Jesuit manuscripts) to remove these and check the contents for 'hidden treasures'. He found quite a few such treasures.
This is an interesting observation. It makes it all the more suspicious that Voynich waited 9 years before claiming to have taken notice of the letter. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
ReneZ > 08-01-2026, 12:54 AM
Voynich is on record in several places to open bindings in order to look for hidden items.
Given that the pastedown was removed, it is entirely reasonable to assume that Voynich did that.
Here is a newspaper clip from 1915:
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(The sensationalist style is cringeworthy
)
Also pencilled notes were frequently made on books by Voynich.
I do not know of any other changes, but several other people also wrote on the binding. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Jorge_Stolfi > 08-01-2026, 02:44 AM
(08-01-2026, 12:02 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The orange marks on the inside of the cover are a bit hard to explain, as there would have been stuffing there. Unless some item with wax was part of the stuffing. Perhaps even the Marci letter itself? That is not impossible, but seems unlikely. Or the marks came after the pastedown and stuffing were removed?
But after Wilfrid removed the Jesuit's pastedown, wasn't a new lining sheet glued in its place?
(A,B) Remnants of lining presumably removed by Wilfrid. (C ) New lining pasted some time after that.
If this is correct, then those brown stains cannot be from the wax seals on the cover letter, can they be?
All the best, --stolfi
PS. By the way, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a post at an absolutely not no no not accepted fringe pseudoscience thread out there in the corner with a curious observation about that residual lining and the chemical smearing on f1r.