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Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

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• Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 22-01-2026, 05:46 PM

  Well, to the extent that I was noting and implying earlier and in my last post, the elephant in the room in the VM, as far as the plants are concerned, may be that the text can be meaningful and informational for the plants, while the images should not be treated as necessarily realistic of them, opening ambiguities about not just their identification, but perhaps even natural ambiguities that the text may have been commenting on, and misjudging the images, or the plants, can end up being misleading.
  
  But I think no matter which of the scholar identifications one may choose, I would not be surprised to find that similar issues about the benefits or harms of the plants will be found, and in that sense, we should go beyond simple identification challenge of plants and consider their medical implications for which the VM may have been created by its author for specific reasons.
  
  I must add that, to some extent, I think some images can be reliably accepted, at least for me. For example, Aga’s identification of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as Leuzea conifera, seems very similar to me, so studying their medicinal value may prove to be helpful. However, visually, the plant images may be conveying other symbolic meanings that are not plant related per se.
  
  For example, f13v’s blossom looks very similar to the first page symbol references I reported earlier as found in Sjelle Kirke (a two-pronged image, in this case with almost exact blossom inside). So, like the eagle root in another plant, and so on, the author may be using the plants to convey other information that may not be necessarily medically significant, but significant in personal and social status way. In this sense studying the images for their own sake can be helpful.
  
  The difficulty is that there is no reliable consensus in my view on the meaning of their texts. Of course those who claim they know the text’s meaning they are entitled to their opinions and can make their own interpretations, but they can’t expect others to accept them simply because they have made up their minds. I am not there yet, unfortunately.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  R. Sale > 22-01-2026, 07:26 PM

  It has been suggested that the VMs plants section is the botanical equivalent of a medieval bestiary - fantastical representations of real animals and hypothetical images of imaginary animals.
  
  You've mentioned the "eagle root" several times (presumedly f46v). That designation is problematic in that it stems from an attempt to connect this artistic element with the double-headed eagle of the Holy Roman Empire. However, as you can see, the image doesn't have one head, let alone two. Furthermore. the representation has no feet or tail. At best, it is a pair of connected wings, a heraldic vol. But whose wings are they?
  
  The flowers have been identified (by some) as costmary, the herb of the Virgin, from the medieval tradition of the so-called Mary's Garden. If the wings are attributed to the Archangel Michael, in his capacity as psychopomp, then the illustration is a sort of botanical representation of the Assumption of the Virgin.
  
  It is interesting to speculate whether the VMs artist was making this sort of subtle analogy.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 22-01-2026, 08:17 PM

  (22-01-2026, 07:26 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It has been suggested that the VMs plants section is the botanical equivalent of a medieval bestiary - fantastical representations of real animals and hypothetical images of imaginary animals.
  
  You've mentioned the "eagle root" several times (presumedly f46v). That designation is problematic in that it stems from an attempt to connect this artistic element with the double-headed eagle of the Holy Roman Empire. However, as you can see, the image doesn't have one head, let alone two. Furthermore. the representation has no feet or tail. At best, it is a pair of connected wings, a heraldic vol. But whose wings are they?
  
  The flowers have been identified (by some) as costmary, the herb of the Virgin, from the medieval tradition of the so-called Mary's Garden. If the wings are attributed to the Archangel Michael, in his capacity as psychopomp, then the illustration is a sort of botanical representation of the Assumption of the Virgin.
  
  It is interesting to speculate whether the VMs artist was making this sort of subtle analogy.

  
  Actually, I mentioned the eagle before in relation to the medicinal value of plant for eyesight (as quoted from the dissertation I was linking), you may want to go back to that post to see it as the passage was interesting; somehow the eagle's superior eyesight was used to suggest the medicinal value of this plant, perhaps, if this was the same plant. 
  
  So there could be that, or yet, could be reference to some royal emblem, and really a symbolic representation does not have to be exactly like you may find in this or that royal court, like whether there are heads or not, or one or two heads, etc. I was just speculating about possible, non-medical, significance of the images. That's all, for now. Perhaps later we can find other connections, like the religious ones you suggested also.
  
  I agree that it is interesting to make such speculations, and I have a feeling that amid a wider context of dots connected, it may find new meanings.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  Doireannjane > 22-01-2026, 08:29 PM

  Yes I’ve noticed that very creative approach to medicinal plants on the forum! Leueza Confira looks similar but it has distinct leaves. Why wouldn’t they be included visually? That doesn’t align with the pattern of all the plants and tree buds in the manuscript. It is described visually and by exact name and quality in the text.  Dittany. Cup-shaped thistle. I could be wrong though.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  Doireannjane > 22-01-2026, 08:40 PM

  As someone recently said to me: “people on the forum want answers, just not from you” haha valid.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  R. Sale > 22-01-2026, 09:59 PM

  Where did you get the idea that it *was* an eagle??

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  Doireannjane > 22-01-2026, 10:01 PM

  As far as what you’ve described as “eagle root” for 46v. I think it’s just depicting growth trajectory. So the cypress family of tree is vaguely is referenced in the text. Not sure which type. But cypress roots grow up through the soil forming cypress knees. I hope this helps.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 23-01-2026, 12:12 AM

  @R. Sale, if you were asking me, I think I first saw it on this very interesting page with excellent observations which I was going to refer to later in my posts, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..? I am also interested in the red horns of the “eagle” that reminds me of the image on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (top right, I labeled V3), but even like others V1 and V2 on that page. I had also seen that root referred to as eagle in other pages that I have not kept track of, but this page, I had bookmarked and was going to come back to. As I was linking the page for this post in response to your question, I noticed on the bottom of one of the images related to the eagle an R. Sale is mentioned, is that reference to you? I had not noticed it before.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  R. Sale > 23-01-2026, 02:14 AM

  It's not a new investigation. I did not make the plant ID. I trace that back to E. Velinska. I did not suggest the connection to St. Michael. That was @Juan_Sali. I just put two and two together and said "Bingo, isn't that interesting." Just though I'd pass it along, as "interesting". It would certainly qualify as another subtle Christian allusion.
  
  It's the sort of thing that might not be readily apparent unless one considers a method of communication using something like rebus images, for lack of a better description.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 23-01-2026, 05:32 AM

  @ R. Sale, thanks much for your further feedback and original question. I will try to find and read more of your threads to catch up on as I find them very thoughtful and perceptive (I just read a few regarding the above points and that image). Unfortunately there is so much incredible research done by all of you in this forum that I find it impossible to catch up on, so have to be selective. I will hopefully elaborate more on why I think your identifications are important. I have to follow a certain procedure for my own sake of ascertaining some issues at each step before proceeding, since the process itself is not pre-determined and I have to learn a lot still from all here, testing things for myself as I move on, to make sure my feet are on the VM ground to the extent possible (which is not easy).
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