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The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

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  • The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi
• The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

• The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  MarcoP > 03-04-2016, 02:12 PM

  I recently read an You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by the Italian herbal expert Sergio Toresella in which the scholar proposes an analogy between the Voynich manuscripts and works by Giovanni Cadamosto.
  
  

  Quote:Personalmente ritengo che l'autore del codice voynich fosse un pazzo (di alto livello però) o più probabilmente un ciarlatano come Cadamosto (parente del navigatore) Quest'ultimo era un uomo assai ricco e pubblicò un ragguardevole lavoro sulle piante, un Tacuinum sanitatis e parecchie considerazioni sui veleni. La sua opera è stata ricopiata diverse volte negli anni e si trova a Vienna, New York, Lugano, Norimberga, Firenze, Parigi (questa copia gli fu pagata 10 scudi d'oro da Borso d'Este). [...]
  Se non ricordo male, ma dovrei consultare i miei appunti, una vaghissima correlazione di tipo contenutistico si potrebbe forse vedere tra le donnine nude al bagno di voynich e una tarda copia dell'erbario di Cadamosto che si trova alla Biblioteca Comunale di New York che mi pare contenga un capitolo sui bagni termali di Porretta.

  
  My translation:
  Personally, I think that the author of the Voynich manuscript was a madman (but of a high level) or more likely a charlatan like Cadamosto (a relative of the sailor). He was a very rich man and published an important work about plants, a “Tacuinum sanitatis” and several considerations about venoms. His work has been copied many timest through the years and can be found in Vienna, New York, Lugano, Nuremberg, Florence, Paris (this copied was paid to him 10 golden scudi by Borso d'Este). [...]
  If I remember correctly (but I should check my notes) a weak correlation in terms of contents could maybe be seen between the naked bathing women in the Voynich ms and a late copy of Cadamosto's herbal in the City Library of New York which I think contains a chapter about the thermal baths in Porretta.
  
  (In these same comments, Toresella dismisses as irrelevant the work of Stephen Bax and praises Pelling's Filarete hypothesis – I disagree with these opinions, which are not the subject of this thread)
  
  The sailor mentioned by Toresella likely is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (also Alvide da Ca' da Mosto) who “undertook two known journeys to West Africa in 1455 and 1456”.
  
  Copies of the herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi have been mentioned both by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I recently compared one of them with the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. discussed by Koen Gh.
  
  Here are some on-line copies:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Veneto, 3rd quarter 15th century. (before 1472). Online scans are of excellent quality and allow the Italian text to be easily read.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – this is the copy made for Borso d'Este mentioned by Toresella. The manuscript was written in 1471. The BNF images allow an analysis of the illustrations, but for the roots of the plants at the bottom which have often been trimmed in the scans). The resolution is not sufficient to read the text.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. From the site: Dated to ca. 1475 by notes in dossier; in a northern Italian dialect. Acc. to Kup, the direct ancestor of the illustration cycle in our ms. is the Latin Tacuinum You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. As noted by Toresella, this copy includes a bathing section (near the end).
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. A XVI century copy. Origin: Northern Italy or Germany. The Italian text appears after the illustrations, starting at f80r.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Augsburg?, 1520 – 1530. I have been unable to find any specific statement, but I think this beautiful German manuscript also derives from Cadamosto's herbal. This manuscript is similar to Harley 3736.
  
  For comparison, I attach images of Bryonia from the different manuscripts.
  
  
  Cadamosto's herbal is too late to have inspired the Voynich manuscript, still it is a very interesting parallel. In particular, roots include various curious elements that also appear in the VMS. Also, the herbal is very accurate and it appears to have been originally at least partially drawn from actual plants. It includes some of the “plants of the alchemists” (e.g. Lunaria, A morso serpentis, Consolida) but it does not feature the strong simplification that makes the “alchemical herbals” stylistically different from the VMS. As noted by Toresella, also the presence of a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the New York exemplar is of interest.
  
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  Here is the list of plants in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (see comment You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Clickable links to the later illustrations in BL Harley MS 3736.
  
  13 top - "Artemesia" , artemisia  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  13 bottom - "Acetosa" , rumex acetosa / sorrel ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  14 top - "Acetosa mezana" , sorrel ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  14 bottom - "Acetosa minore" , sorrel ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  15 top - "Agrimonia" , agrimony  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  15 bottom - "Absinchio ?" , artemisia absinthium ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  16 top - "Alchechingi" , physalis alkekengi  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  16 bottom - "Aleluya panis cuculi" , trifolium silvestre  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  17 top - "Aristologia longa" , “long” aristolochia  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  17 bottom - "Aristologia rotonda" ,  “round” aristolochia  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  18 top - "Acori" , acorus gramineus?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  18 bottom - "Abrotano" , artemisia abrotanum ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  19 top - "Afodili" , asphodelus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  19 bottom - "Atriplice" , atriplex hortensis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  20 top - "Anese" , pimpinella anisum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  20 bottom - "Assabachera" , asarum europaeum / asarabacca  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  21 top - "Antola" , aconitum anthora ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  21 bottom - "Argentale herba senza costa" , ophioglossum vulgatum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  22 top - "Appio" , apium graveolens  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  22 bottom - "Aleo selvatico" , allium ursinum / wild garlic  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  23 top - "Apio riso" , apium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  23 bottom - "Anedalco consolida magiore" , arnica montana ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  24 top - "Anedo" , anethum graveolens  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  24 bottom - "Avedon tasso barbasso" , verbascum thapsus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  25 top - "Alixandra" , smyrnium olusatrum / Alexanders  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  25 bottom - "Aricanto eleboro biancho" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  26 top - "Angelica" , angelica ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  26 bottom - "Antipater herba muscata" , achillea erba-rotta subsp. moschata ?
  27 top - " -
  27 bottom - "Artetica peolosella" , ajuga chamaepitys  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  28 top - "Amarella" , artemisia vulgaris  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  28 bottom - "Affrania" , saffron crocus ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  29 top - "Antora" , aconitum anthora ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  29 bottom - "Anedina" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  30 top - "Annabula" , tithymalus spathulatus / euphorbia spathulata  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  30 bottom - "Arca angelica angelica" , archangelica   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  31 top - "Adianto" , adiantum capillus-veneris ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  31 bottom - "Ambrosia" , ambrosia  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  32 top - "Bugolosa" , anchusa azurea  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  32 bottom - "Betonica" , stachys officinalis / betony  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  33 top - "Bardana" , arctium lappa  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  33 bottom - "Bursa pastoris" ,  capsella bursa-pastoris / shepherd's-purse  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  34 top - "Boragine" , borago / borage  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  34 bottom - "Branca ursina" ,  heracleum sphondylium ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  35 top - "Balsamita menta acquatica" , tanacetum balsamita  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  35 bottom - "Brionia" , bryonia dioica  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  36 top - "Balicha" , matthiola incana  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  36 bottom - "Berbena" , verbena officinalis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  37 top - "Bedegar" , cynara cardunculus / cardoon  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  37 bottom - "Barbaircina" , tragopogon  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  38 top - "Bonavischio" , althaea officinalis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  38 bottom - "Bistorta" , bistorta  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  39 top - "Bonifacia pagana" , ruscus hypoglossum ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  39 bottom - "Batilessere" , centaurea cyanus / cornflower  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  40 top - "Bruscono" , ruscus aculeatus / butcher's-broom,  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  40 bottom - "Barba aron herba bilera" , arum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  41 top - "Barba iovis sticados" , lavandula stoechas / lavender ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  41 bottom - "Basilico" ,  ocimum basilicum / basil  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  42 top - "Beusto" ,  ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  42 bottom - "Bledono ?", Bledorio ? ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  43 top - "Benrosso" , statice limonium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  43 bottom - "Boragine salvatico" , borago / wild borage  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  44 top - "Centaurea minore" , centaurea minor  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  44 bottom - "Canaparia" , eupatorium cannabinum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  45 top - "Cardoncello" ,  cirsium arvense / thistle  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  45 bottom - "Cauda equina" , equisetum / horsetail  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  46 top - "Camomilla" , matricaria chamomilla / chamomile  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  46 bottom - "Cameleonta nigra" , carlina gummifera ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  47 top - "Cinaglossa lingua canis" , cynoglossum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  47 bottom - "Cottula bruxa bocha" , anthemis cotula ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  48 top - "Capillo venere" , adiantum capillus-veneris  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  48 bottom - "Consolida minore" , symphytum bulbosum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  49 top - "Cipero" , aspalatus linearis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  49 bottom - "Caprifolio" , lonicera / caprifolium / honeysuckles  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  50 top - "Cichlamen" , cyclamen  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  50 bottom - "Cigola squilla" , drimia maritima  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  51 top - "Carlina" , carlina    You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  51 bottom - "Campanella gentiana minore" , gentiana asclepiadea   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  52 top - "Cimballaria colitidon" , cymbalaria  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  52 bottom - "Centrogalli scarlegia" , alectorolophus / rhinanthus minor  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  53 top - "Cardo benedetto herba turca" , centaurea benedicta ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  53 bottom - "Cappari" , capparis spinosa / caper  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  54 top - "Corigiola sanguinaria poligonia" , dipsacus ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  54 bottom - "Coriandro" , coriandrum sativum / coriander  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  55 top - "Catapucia tintimalo" , euphorbia lathyris  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  55 bottom - "Cauda leonis" , limodorum ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  56 top - "Cuscute" , cuscuta / dodder  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  56 bottom - "Cauda porcina meyo salvatico" , peucedanum officinale ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  57 top - "Cicuta" , cicuta /  water hemlock  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  57 bottom - "Centonico" , artemisia santonicum ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  58 top - "Camepiteos" ,  ajuga chamaepitys  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  58 bottom - "Calamento" , calamintha  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  59 top - "Crespola" , chrysanthemum parthenium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  59 bottom - "Camedreos quercula" , teucrium chamaedrys / wall germander.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  60 top - "Cicorea" , cichorium intybus / wild chicory  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  60 bottom - "Celidonia" , chelidonium majus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  61 top - "Cartamo zafrano salvatico" , carthamus tinctorius / safflower  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  61 bottom - "Chroco zafrano domestico" , crocus sativus / saffron / autumn crocus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  62 top - "Carenza pan molo" ,  ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  62 bottom - "Cucumero asinino" , ecballium elaterium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  63 top - "Castagnola" , scrophularia nodosa ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  63 bottom - "Citracha" , asplenium ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  64 top - "Corbula" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  64 bottom - "Caruino" , carum carvi?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  65 top - "Centaurea magiore" , centaurea centaurium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  65 bottom - "Cauda vulpina" , fox's tail ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  66 top - "Canna domestica" , arundo donax ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  66 bottom - "Canna salvatica" ,  arundo donax ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  67 top - "Campanara" , myrtus communis ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  67 bottom - "Colandra" ,  ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  68 top - "Canforada" , stratiotes aloides ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  68 bottom - "Castora" , ricinus communis / castorbean  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  69 top - "Castrangula minore" , scrophularia ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  69 bottom - "Cannamella" , accharum officinarum ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  70 top - "Cottula media" , anthemis cotula ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  70 bottom - "Cugierera" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  71 top - "Cicorea domestica" ,  cichorium intybus / chicory  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  71 bottom - "Cottula major" , anthemis cotula ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  72 top - "Chiri" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  72 bottom - "Cressone" , nasturtium officinale / watercress  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  73 top - "Centumcapita" , eryngium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  73 bottom - "Castrangula milimorbia" , scrophularia ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  74 top - "Cararola" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  74 bottom - "Costanza" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  75 top - "Caspetres" , saxifraga hirculus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  75 bottom - "Casturza" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  76 top - "Crespanica" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  76 bottom - "Cornatella" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  77 top - "Diptamo" , dictamnus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  77 bottom - "Dragontea" , dracunculus vulgaris  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  78 top - "Dauco pastonachia salvatica" , pastinaca / daucus carota  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  78 bottom - "Daneda" , tanacetum vulgare  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  79 top - "Dente de leone taraxacon" , taraxacum officinale / common dandelion  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  79 bottom - "Durella sissamo" , sesamum indicum / sesame ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  80 top - "Dente caballino iuschiaris" , hyoscyamus niger   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  80 bottom - "Dragone" , artemisia dracunculus / tarragon  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  81 top - "Ermodatilo" , iris tuberosa  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  81 bottom - "Elleboro nigro" , helleborus niger  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  82 top - "Epaticha" , marchantiophyta / hepatopsida  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  82 bottom - "Elleboro bianco" , helleborus albus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  83 top - "Ebulo" , sambucus ebulus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  83 bottom - "Eufrasia" , euphrasia ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  84 top - "Enula" , inula helenium / elecampane  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  84 bottom - "Edera" , hedera / ivy   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  85 top - "Esula" , euphorbia esula   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  85 bottom - "Epictamo" , cuscuta epithymum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  86 top - "Fen grecho" , trigonella foenum-graecum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  86 bottom - "Eupatorio" , eupatorium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  87 top - "Fenichulo erbabona" , foeniculum vulgare / fennel  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  87 bottom - "Filopendula vistago" , filipendula  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  88 top - "Faba inversa" , atropa belladonna  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  88 bottom - "Faba grecha grasulla" , crassula ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  89 top - "Furmotere" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  89 bottom - "Farfarela" , petasites hybridus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  90 top - "Felefe" , pteridophyte / fern ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  90 bottom - "Fillago" , filago  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  91 top - "Folio" , equisetum arvense ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  91 bottom - "Fragule" , fragaria / strawberry  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  92 top - "Fafana testiculi de sacerdothi" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  92 bottom - "Gariofolata pes leporis" , geum urbanum / wood avens / herb Bennet  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  93 top - "Git groton" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  93 bottom - "Gentiana" , gentiana ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  94 top - "Garofolo" , dianthus caryophyllus / carnation   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  94 bottom - "Genestra" , genista / broom  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  95 top - "Gratia dei" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  95 bottom - "Gramegna" , cynodon dactylon / devil's grass  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  96 top - "Galiga ructa capraria" , galeopsis ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  96 bottom - "Genogelo sechacul" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  97 top - "Giusemin" , jasminum / jasmine  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  97 bottom - "Gratiola" , gratiola officinalis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  98 top - "Herba grana" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  98 bottom - "Garofoli indiani" , syzygium aromaticum / clove  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  99 top - "Herba bianca calendula" , calendula  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  99 bottom - "Herba fornefera erba nova" , solanum nigrum / black nightshade  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  100 top - "Herba grissa" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  100 bottom - "Herba venti? denti?" , taraxacum officinale / common dandelion ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  101 top - "Herba gualteri" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  101 bottom - "Herba pe de barba ruberti" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  102 top - "Herba foruncula" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  102 bottom - "Herba potaria" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  103 top - "Isopo" , hyssopus officinalis / hyssop  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  103 bottom - "Ipericon perforata" , hypericum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  104 top - "Iva" , achillea ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  104 bottom - "Iva muscada" , achillea muschiata  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  105 top - "Ioncholo" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  105 bottom - "Ireos" , iris ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  106 top - "Iris" , iris  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  106 bottom - "Iordana" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  107 top - "Imperatoria" , peucedanum ostruthium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  107 bottom - "Indicho" , indigofera tinctoria ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  108 top - "Liqueritia" , lycyrrhiza glabra / licorice  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  108 bottom - "Herba rosa erba sancta maria" , tanacetum balsamita ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  109 top - "Linaria" , linaria vulgaris  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  109 bottom - "Levisticho" , levisticum officinale  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  110 top - "Lillio" , lilium / lily  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  110 bottom - "Lapatio" , rumex / dock  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  111 top - "Lupulo" , humulus lupulus / hop   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  111 bottom - "Lino linoxa" , linum usitatissimum / flax  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  112 top - "Lunaria magiore" , lunaria rediviva ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  112 bottom - "Latuca" , lactuca sativa, lettuce  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  113 top - "Lantiola" , plantago lanceolata  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  113 bottom - "Lavenda" , lavandula, lavender  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  114 top - "Lapa inversa" , arctium lappa ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  114 bottom - "Luminela" , euphrasia officinalis ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  115 top - "Lunaria minore" , petasites hybridus ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  115 bottom - "Lingua pagana" , ruscus hypoglossum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  116 top - "Malva" , malva sylvestris / common mallow  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  116 bottom - "Men petrosilio salvatico" , petroselinum crispum / parsley  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  117 top - "Memite" , chelidonium majus / greater celandine  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  117 bottom - "Mandragora femina" , mandragora autumnalis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  118 top - "Marsilia faba lupina" , anayris foetida ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  118 bottom - "Malabrancha" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  119 top - "Milifolium" , achillea millefolium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  119 bottom - "Mazabaro" , santalum album ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  120 top - "Milliloto" , melilotus officinalis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  120 bottom - "Morso del diavolo" , succisa pratensis ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  121 top - "Menta" , mentha / mint  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  121 bottom - "Mentastro" , mentha spicata / spearmint  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  122 top - "Malva media roye marine" , paeonia / peony ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  122 bottom - "Melongiano" , solanum melongena / eggplant  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  123 top - "Milimorbia" , scrophularia  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  123 bottom - "Maiorana" , origanum majorana / marjoram   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  124 top - "Melisa cetronela" , melissa officinalis / lemon balm  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  124 bottom - "More salvatiche" , rubus ulmifolius / blackberry  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  125 top - "Momordicha herba balzamina" , momordica charantia  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  125 bottom - "Martegon ffera cavalo" , lilium martagon ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  126 top - "Mezercon laureola" , salix daphnoides ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  126 bottom - "Merobio marobio" , marrubium vulgare / white horehound  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  127 top - "Morso serpentis" , aquilegia vulgaris ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  127 bottom - "Melica" , melica  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  128 top - "Mercurela" , mercurialis annua ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  128 bottom - "Mandragora" , mandragora  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  129 top - "Nenufaro" , nuphar / water lily  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  129 bottom - "Nigela" , nigella  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  130 top - "Langurie" , citrullus lanatus / watermelon  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  130 bottom - "Lupini" , lupinus albus / lupin  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  131 top - "Origano" , origanum vulgare / oregano  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  131 bottom - "Nepita" , nepeta / catmint  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  132 top - "Nasturzo" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  132 bottom - "Napelo" , aconitum napellus ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  133 top - "Oleander" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  133 bottom - "Oculi cristi" , dianthus barbatus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  134 top - "Papavero biancho" , papaver / white poppy  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  134 bottom - "Papavero negro" , papaver somniferum / opium poppy  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  135 top - "Pe de nibio" , ranunculus acris / buttercup  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  135 bottom - "Paretaria cirefola erba venti" , parietaria officinalis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  136 top - "Pentafilon quinque folium" , gynostemma pentaphyllum ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  136 bottom - "Primaveris" , primula ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  137 top - "Pentadactilo agrasolo" , ricinus communis / castorbean ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  137 bottom - "Papavero roso" , papaver / red poppy  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  138 top - "Provincha perlenga" , vinca minor  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  138 bottom - "Polmonaria" , pulmonaria / lungwort  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  139 top - "Polio montano" , teucrium montanum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  139 bottom - "Palma christi" , dactylorhiza maculata  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  140 top - "Polipodio" , polypodium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  140 bottom - "Politricho" , polytrichum ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  141 top - "Piperculi carvyno" , thymus piperella ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  141 bottom - "Pimpinela" , pimpinella ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  142 top - "Piantana" , plantago lanceolata / plantain  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  142 bottom - "Pulezolo" , mentha pulegium  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  143 top - "Primula veris herba san pedro" , tanacetum balsamita  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  143 bottom - "Porcelana" , portulaca oleracea  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  144 top - "Persicaria" , persicaria  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  144 bottom - "Paucedano" , peucedanum officinale  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  145 top - "Pulicaria psilio" , conyza / horseweed / butterweed   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  145 bottom - "Peonia" , paeonia / peony  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  146 top - "Pe colombino" , geranium columbinum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  146 bottom - "Pavaratia" , stellaria media / chickweed,  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  147 top - 
  147 bottom - "Plantana aquatica" , alisma plantago-aquatica  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  148 top - "Rafano" , armoracia rusticana / cochlearia armoraci / horseradish   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  148 bottom - "Roxa" , rosa / rose  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  149 top - "Ramponzolo" , campanula rapunculus   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  149 bottom - "Ructa" , ruta graveolens  / rue  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  150 top - "Rosmarino" , rosmarinus officinalis / rosemary  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  150 bottom - "Ructa salvatica" , ruta / wild rue  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  151 top - "Rucola" , eruca sativa  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  151 bottom - "Senavere" , colutea arborescens  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  152 top - "Sissamo" , sium sisarum  / skirret ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  152 bottom - "Rubea tinctorum" , rubia tinctorum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  153 top - "Scolopendria" , phymatosorus scolopendria  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  153 bottom - "Sparesi" , asparagus  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  154 top - "Sempreviva" , sempervivum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  154 bottom - "Salvia" , salvia officinalis / sage  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  155 top - "Sempresiciens" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  155 bottom - "Scabiosa" , scabiosa  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  156 top - "Serpilio" , thymus serpyllum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  156 bottom - "Saponaria" , saponaria  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  157 top - "Savina" , juniperus sabina ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  157 bottom - "Sasifragia" , saxifraga  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  158 top - "Sanbugolo" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  158 bottom - "Satirione" , neotinea maculata ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  159 top - "Saturegia segrizola" , satureja  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  159 bottom - "Scariola" , cichorium endivia  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  160 top - "Solatro" , solanum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  160 bottom - "Sisamo minore" , sesamum indicum ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  161 top - "Trifolio" , trifolium / clover  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  161 bottom - "Trifolio acuto" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  162 top - "Tabariso" , ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  162 bottom - "Tormentila" , potentilla erecta / tormentilla  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  163 top - "Tarasacon indiva salvaticha" , taraxacum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  163 bottom - "Tartufole" , tuber / truffles  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  164 top - "Urtica" , urtica dioica / nettle  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  164 bottom - "Viola" , viola  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  165 top - "Vincetosico" , vincetoxicum hirundinaria ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  165 bottom - "Valeriana" , valeriana officinalis  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  166 top - "Stelaria" , stellaria / starwort  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  166 bottom - "Siler montano" , laserpitium siler  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  167 top - "Oculi bovis" , buphthalmum  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  167 bottom - "Tribulo marino" , eryngium maritimum / sea holly ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  168 top - "Vitis albe" , bryonia dioica ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  168 bottom - "Vitis nigra" , dioscorea communis ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  169 top - "Saldanela" , brassica ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  169 bottom - "Volubile" , convolvulus arvensis / field bindweed  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  170 top - "Vermicularia" , senecio ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  170 bottom - "Zinzania" , lolium temulentum / darnel  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  171 top - "Zilia" , zilla myagroides ?  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  171 bottom - "Zenenerigo" , juniperus / juniper ? zingiber / ginger ? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  MarcoP > 04-04-2016, 06:44 PM

  Davidsch asked me to translate some of the text in the Vienna manuscript, so here is the text in the first page:
  
  

  Quote:Facto questo nobilissimo Collegio et studio detanti Valenthomini circa le nature de lherbe de cibi e de ueneni / de pietre et de parole et de loro iuuamenti et nocumenti et ad remouere li nocimenti soi et claramente ha[n]no / conclusa la mera uerita de queste cose , le quale paerndo admi Iohanne Cadamosto sparse in tanti uolumi . no[n] / con pocha fatica . uigilie . et affanni . le ho reducte insema . como nel processo udereti: per Alphabeto . per piu / facilita trouarle ad laude et honore dello omnipotente iDio el quale sana ogni langore:

  
  This very noble council and study of so many men of value was made about the nature of plants, foods and venoms, / stones and words and their benefits and damages and to remove their damages and clearly they / concluded the pure truth of such matters. Seeming to me, Giovanni Cadamosto, that all these things were spread in many books, with no / little efforts, vigils and troubles, I brought them together, as you will see in the following, alphabetically, so that they / are easier to find, for the praise and honor of the almighty God who heals every sickness.
  
  The illustration represents the “noble council” presided by Avicenna.

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  Diane > 05-04-2016, 02:59 PM

  In the comparative series of thumbnails shown with Marco's post of April 3rd, 2016, you can see the label "Brionia" on some, though in others the text is not shown.
  
  
  The plant intended by those images appears to add the 'human body' as aid to distinguishing this plant as the White bryony.  
  
  It is poison, like the others called by that name - the Black Bryony (Tammis communis LINN) and the European white Bryony (Bryonia alba. LINN).
  
  However, it is only the White Bryony (Bryonia dioica LINN.), so far as I can discover, which was associated with the Mandrake plant, whose roots also often show human 'roots'. White Bryony was called   'the English Mandrake'.
  
  Such mnemonic elements, in imagery from the European medieval traditions, will often refer to the written text, and to popular lore,  and are designed to recall specific words associated with a plant. (Alain Touwaide has also noted this connection in relation to the Latin European herbal tradition). 
  
  On that point, however, we find another distinguishing difference in the way the Voynich botanical folios employ roots as mnemonic.  That is to say (and I'm not including the roots-and-leaves section in this), they refer only to the plant-group's economic value and practical uses. You don't need to know any language in particular, only enough about the plants - they are aids to recall of why a particular good is worth buying/selling/having.
  
  I think this is an important difference - an instance of a very different mind-set - between these European works on paper and the imagery in the Vms.
  
  I would agree in relation to stylistics, though, that the 'Veneto style' in European botanical imagery of the fifteenth century is very interesting. It would appear to have affected the earliest of the examples which Marco illustrates (with thumbnails) in the same post. 
  
  The earliest example, the 'Belluno' leaves themselves, are early fifteenth century, probably made in the Veneto, and are held as   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..  What I should ideally like to see is the opinion of an independent specialist (i.e. with no connection to Voynich studies), on what degree that style has influenced the later herbal imagery produced from the Veneto - including Cadamosto's.  
  
  When listing works considered similar, I think it is a good idea to list them in order of date if possible.  Otherwise the reader tends to presume that the one on the top of the list is the 'ur' version, from which the following are descended.
  
  Whether a text was produced on paper, as Cadomostro's was, or on membrane as the Vms is is also a very important difference for codicologists and for tracing the history of a given work.
  
  For example, since MS Beinecke 408 is on vellum its absence of marking up is most unusual and another among many signals of non-Latin European origins.  A different mind-set and set of customs.
  
  On the other hand, people who used paper were often able to use the laid-lines to keep their writing straight and you may not see marking up on those pages.  Comparing paper to the Vms, then, can tend to imply that 'other herbals' had similar format whereas in fact that similarity is invalid.
  
  I had been wondering whether Torasella's views had changed in the past thirty years, but I see that he seems still to maintain his first idea that the manuscript had an 'author' whom he imagines as a  sex-crazed herbalist obsessed with 'pea-soup' herbal baths. How he combines that with  Pelling's Averlino thesis, I'm not sure, but then I don't believe either is sufficiently justified by the primary source, do I?  

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  MarcoP > 20-05-2016, 08:49 PM

  Transcription and translation of Cadamosto's description of Lunaria (image 112 of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
  
  Lunaria magiore e calda e secha in primo grado
  e freda e humida insecondo per virtu spetificha
  questa sie una erba la quale fa uno fusto longo
  zinque palmi e fa quindese foglie comenzando
  el primo di de la luna fa una foglia el secondo
  di un altra e cossi vano cresendo fine a quindex
  foglie. el sedice di croda una foglia / e vano
  crodando tute cosi come cresse la luna cossi
  crese le foglie como cala la luna cala le foglie
  e cosi se cognosse quanti di a la luna vedendo 
  questa herba / mangiando de questa herba 
  fa tornare la vista a uno che labia persa / e por
  tandela adosso no[n] po esere afturato ne te
  mera nesuna mala cossa. mangiata questa
  herba cura la febre quartana e leva e cura
  tute le pasione melancolice / e portandela /a
  dosso sera amato da ogni p[er]sona e no[n] li potra
  noce li inimici soy. li alkemisti dicono che
  una dragma de questa polvere butandela
  in ramo fonduto diventa oro/ e nel stagno
  dive[n]ta argento. 
  
  The greater Lunaria is hot and dry in the first degree, 
  cold and wet in the second. For its specific virtue, 
  this herb grows a stem five palms 
  long and makes fifteen leaves. Beginning 
  the first day of the moon, it makes a leaf, the second 
  day another one, and so they grow up to fifteen 
  leaves. The sixteenth day a leaf falls 
  and all fall down. As the moon grows, so 
  the leaves grow. As the moon wanes, so the leaves fall. 
  And so we know how many days the moon has, seeing 
  this herb. Eating this herb, one who 
  lost his sight recovers it. Wearing
  it, one cannot be charmed and 
  he will not fear any bad thing. Eaten, 
  it cures the quartan fever and removes and cures 
  all melancholy passions. Wearing it, 
  one will be loved by everyone and he 
  will not be armed by his enemies. The alchemists say 
  a drachma of this powder thrown into molten copper 
  turns it into gold, and into tin
  turns it into silver.

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  Davidsch > 21-05-2016, 11:59 AM

  marco thou are of silver ande gold
  thryrty days are not enough to say 
  how much i like your transkypt

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  MarcoP > 23-05-2016, 09:57 AM

  Hello David, I am glad you appreciated the transcription! For comparison. here is a more ordinary plant (the first one) from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Artemisia, image 13).
  
  Artemesia e calda in terzo grado e secca in secondo et e dima[n]data
  matre delle herbe. la decoccione de questa herba beuta cura le
  aposterne de la matrice et sedendo in dicta dcocione cura le sue
  duraze. pistata con buono vino et bevuta fa disperdere le done.
  et emplasteata suso al vetre provoca la secondina. beuta la 
  sua decocione facta con vino bianco p[ro]voca la urina et con[n]du-
  ce for le pietre delle vene. adiuta quelli che sono gialdi. et 
  cura quelli che hanno recevuto l opio pistata et beuta con
  vino. et chi mangiara de dicta herba fara sicuro del noci-
  mento de le medecine. portandola al colo no[n] sara morduto da
  bestia venenosa. mettendo lherba ad bulire nel mosto nel vasello
  bevendo de quel vino havera bono et gratissimo odore. et conf-
  ortara el stomaco et levara li humori melancolici del cuore.
  mangiata dicta herba apre le vene emoroidale.et. cure le apo-
  steme del sedio. et chi la porta con si non teme la fatica de
  lo andare. missa ne la casa discacia li demonii et veta
  at tutti li incantamenti.
  
  Artemisia is cold in the third degree and dry in the second. It is called
  the mother of all herbs. Drinking a decoction of this herb cures the
  pustules of the uterus; sitting on that decoction cures its 
  hardness. Crushed with good wine and drunk, it causes abortion.
  As a plaster on the abdomen, it causes the placenta [to be expelled]. Drinking
  a decoction made with white wine causes urine and takes
  out the stones from the veins. It helps those who are yellow and
  cures those who received opium if crushed and drunk with
  wine. Whoever eats this herb will be safe from the damages
  of medicines. Wearing it at his neck, one will not be bitten by
  venomous beasts. Boiling the plant in must in a small jar,
  drinking that wine one will have a good and grateful smell; it will
  comfort the stomach and remove melancholic humors from the heart.
  When eaten, this plant opens the veins of the hemorrhoids and cures the
  pustules in the butt. Who brings it with himself does not fear the exertion
  of traveling. Put inside the house, it drives away demons and prevents
  all incantations.

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  nickpelling > 23-05-2016, 11:17 AM

  MarcoP: I think it is important to point out this: that even among the relatively small number of top experts on herbals, Sergio Toresella is unusual in that he travelled the world to examine a huge number of herbal manuscripts first-hand. This was his life's calling, not just a sideline: his opinion was formed from herbals in toto, not the kind of opportunistic and scattered sampling the Internet offers.
  
  Moreover: Paris, BNF, It 1108 is dated "vers 1471", which does not match your personal dating of the Voynich manuscript but closely fits Toresella's dating of ~1460.

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  Koen G > 23-05-2016, 11:40 AM

  Does that mean there is any good reason to doubt the carbon-dating?

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  -JKP- > 23-05-2016, 12:05 PM

  (23-05-2016, 11:40 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does that mean there is any good reason to doubt the carbon-dating?

  
  Even if we take the radiocarbon dating with a grain of salt (which is always a good idea, even though it is good technology and always improving), the vellum, script styles (marginalia), fashion styles, piments/inks, and many other aspects of the manuscript are at least in the same general ballpark as the carbon-dated estimate.
  
  
  
  

  ---

  (23-05-2016, 11:17 AM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.MarcoP: I think it is important to point out this: that even among the relatively small number of top experts on herbals, Sergio Toresella is unusual in that he travelled the world to examine a huge number of herbal manuscripts first-hand. This was his life's calling, not just a sideline: his opinion was formed from herbals in toto, not the kind of opportunistic and scattered sampling the Internet offers.
  
  Moreover: Paris, BNF, It 1108 is dated "vers 1471", which does not match your personal dating of the Voynich manuscript but closely fits Toresella's dating of ~1460.

  
  Glad to see you're over the worst of your computer woes, Nick. Hopefully the rest will fall into place.

• RE: The herbal of Giovanni Cadamosto da Lodi

  ReneZ > 25-05-2016, 12:31 PM

  Even while Toresella's judgment and the C-14 dating do not exactly coincide, I do not see it as a great discrepancy at all.
  
  I certainly consider his opinion as having more weight than that of any of us here. At the same time, the handful of true experts do not necessarily agree. Finally, I think it is quite reasonable to allow a 2-decade margin even on an expert's opinion. 
  
  What could easily have happened is that the parchment was produced in 1430, and the MS completed in 1450. This largely fits with everything.
  Just a possibility of course.
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