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[split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
- [split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
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RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > Today, 02:03 AM
(Today, 12:16 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not looking for guesses but for historical information.
While we wait for that, here is an example of a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from the 1400s.
The catalog entry says that it includes "an early version of the A text of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.", a Medieval English poem. But it is still not a draft of the same, I suppose.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > Today, 02:07 AM
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RE: How many people penned the main Voynichese text?
oshfdk > 9 hours ago
(Today, 12:08 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Again, writing directly to vellum would cost more than writing a draft first; because big mistakes and changes of mind are unavoidable when writing a new book, and mistakes on vellum are hard to fix. Possibly requiring discarding a half-filled bifolio. Thus the fact that he was not rich only makes it more likely that he wrote a draft first.
If he was educated, but had no money, maybe he also didn't have a lot of common sense? I'm not sure what an obviously educated and maybe even well travelled, but poor person in the Middle Ages would be. No matter what the manuscript was for, there was considerable effort put into making it by the author, even if the scribe was someone else. This educated and willing to devote considerable time to this project person didn't even have money for vellum, but did have a lot of time and vigor.
According to your observations, there are various mistakes in the manuscript, like mismatched lines and miscalculated drawings, and no-one discarded these folios. Also, for what I know fixing mistakes on vellum is not very hard at all, you just have to scrape them off with a knife or pumice and write over. It appears, this was never done in the Voynich Manuscript though, why? Maybe just no-one really cared? Maybe to the original author the mistakes weren't a huge concern?
Overall, a lot of your arguments appear to common sense and efficiency, but I don't know why one would assume common sense and efficiency based approach for the author of the Voynich MS.
(Today, 12:08 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No, I did not need "Author different from Scribe" for that. In my "Chinese Theory", the Author was probably European, or at least not "Chinese" -- because he invented the alphabetic Voynichese script to record the "Chinese" source texts. The draft was in Voynichese. Therefore, even if he scribed the vellum himself, the fact that the styles and decoration are European still does not imply that the language and source material are European.
Your argument, if I remember it correctly, was that the Author did witness a lot of oriental imagery and designs, but couldn't properly explain/sketch it for the scribe, because the author was not able to sketch well enough. As the result the scribe, who could draw, replaced all the imagery with European stock designs. If the Author was the Scribe, then obviously the Author could draw reasonably well, at least inanimate objects, and could then draw original oriental designs and leave unambiguous evidence of the oriental origin in the manuscript. Wasn't your argument something like this?
(Today, 12:08 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I recall a quote that, adjusting by estimated cost of living, vellum would cost the equivalent of US$2 per folio. But I don't know how that varies with size and quality.
I assume $2 was for normal quality vellum, not for poor quality scraps or leftovers? -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > 3 hours ago
(9 hours ago)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your argument, if I remember it correctly, was that the Author did witness a lot of oriental imagery and designs, but couldn't properly explain/sketch it for the scribe, because the author was not able to sketch well enough.
Nonono, it's not like that, not at all.
The Chinese Origin Theory says that the Author was an "European" who lived for several years in "China". Enough to have some command of the spoken language. But he never cared or managed to learn their writing system. He found out that they had many books about medicine, herbal remedies, and astronomy/astrology, very different from those that circulated in Europe. He decided to take them with him at the end of his stay. But he could not read the books, and copying the native script would have been pointless. So he asked the local scholars which were the most important books on each subject, and paid someone to read them aloud, while he wrote them down in an alphabetic script that he devised for the purpose.
Surely there were many terms and expressions that he did not understand, but he wrote them as they were dictated, hoping that, back home, he (or some doctor who might buy those transcripts) would eventually decipher their meaning.
As for the figures, he must have copied freehand the diagrams of Cosmo and Zodiac, and the organs and ducts of Bio; probably omitting any details that he recognized as decoration. The illustrations of Pharma should be clean copies of his sketches, which he may have copied from the source book for that section, or obtained in some other way. For the Herbal, he had only the text, not the illustrations; either because the source book did not have them, or he did not have time to copy them.
Back in Europe, he organized those notes and had them transcribed to vellum, either by himself or by a hired Scribe (I believe the latter, but it does not matter). All the decorative elements, including nymphs hats pools canopies etc. were added at that time.
I put "European" in quotes because he may have been Arab, Jew, Turkish, Amenian, etc -- anything but "Chinese"; but was in Europe when the scribing to vellum took place.
And I put "China" in quotes because it could have been any place where they spoke a monosyllabic language.
So, the COT as per above is independent of the "The Scribe Was Not the Author" Theory. And independent also from the Massive Retracing Theory.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
Koen G > 3 hours ago
I just saw the title of this thread. "Cerebellum to vellum" would be a great title for an autocopying paper
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RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
oshfdk > 3 hours ago
(3 hours ago)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Back in Europe, he organized those notes and had them transcribed to vellum, either by himself or by a hired Scribe (I believe the latter, but it does not matter). All the decorative elements, including nymphs hats pools canopies etc. were added at that time.
Looks like I keep forgetting the sequence of events here. Each time I think about this I find it absolutely improbable that no specifically oriental images or designs would have ended up in the manuscript if made this way, so I feel the need to fabricate some additional explanation for this, but we already had this discussion and to you there is nothing strange about this at all. -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > 2 hours ago
(3 hours ago)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Looks like I keep forgetting the sequence of events here. Each time I think about this I find it absolutely improbable that no specifically oriental images or designs would have ended up in the manuscript if made this way, so I feel the need to fabricate some additional explanation for this, but we already had this discussion and to you there is nothing strange about this at all.
We can discuss the Chinese Origin Theory (and whether there are any "oriental images") elsewhere if you will. But the point here is that the COT is completely independent of the The Scribe Was Not The Author Theory, as well as of the There Was A Draft Theory (and its opposite, the Brain To Vellum Theory). Neither needs the other or is made significantly more likely or unlikely by the other.
And, again, the COT is also independent of the Massive Retracing Theory.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: [split] Did the VM go straight from brain to vellum?
oshfdk > 2 hours ago
(2 hours ago)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But the point here is that the COT is completely independent of the The Scribe Was Not The Author Theory, as well as of the There Was A Draft Theory (and its opposite, the Brain To Vellum Theory). Neither needs the other or is made significantly more likely or unlikely by the other.
And, again, the COT is also independent of the Massive Retracing Theory.
I find all these highly related, observations you make in one certainly can affect the other, after all we are talking about a single final object. As far as I understand, you are fine with at least some brain to vellum items, like the designs and embellishments that the scribe added in COT, is this correct? At the same time you consider the mistakes and mishaps a sign of MRT, which also could be alternatively explained as brain to vellum mishaps. Also, there are some items in the original layout of the manuscript, like visible misalignment of certain lines, that you consider mistakes, but that weren't fixed, so maybe fixing mistakes wasn't a priority for the author (regardless of whether the author was the scribe or not). I think all of this could be just as easily explained by a person creating the manuscript directly on the vellum and not caring at all about possible mistakes and bad outcomes. In this case the choice of bad quality vellum could be deliberate, if all this was intended more as an experimental pet project and not something that the author intended to use in the future. And the choice of vellum over paper was just to keep the draft durable, if the project was expected to take a long time. Maybe the Voynich manuscript that we have is the draft of the Voynich manuscript that the author envisioned.