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Viola (odorata or tricolor)
- Viola (odorata or tricolor)
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RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
MarcoP > 27-11-2025, 01:36 PM
(27-11-2025, 12:21 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Probably not too important for us now, but I note two different dates for Gaza's translation of Theophrastus. I got mine (the later one) from a Wiki page, and cannot vouch for its accuracy.
Hi Rene, 1483 is the date of the first printed edition and it appears on the last page of the book.
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The translation is of course earlier, but I got 1454 from Wikipedia too. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Bernd > 27-11-2025, 03:23 PM
(26-11-2025, 10:01 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.F11r is the Odorata sweet violet.
It vaguely looks like one of the succulent South American Violas like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but I fail to see any resemblance to herbal drawings of Viola. They are either quite realistic or depict a Brassicaceae or Linum.
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I do acknowledge there is some faint resemblance to V. odorata in BNF lat. 6823 with the flowers above leaves but that's it.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the yellow/white 'Viola' in Dioscorides was a completely different plant (Brassicaceae), see thread linked above. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 27-11-2025, 03:53 PM
(27-11-2025, 08:48 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So this tradition lists three different kinds of Viola with yellow, white and purple flowers respectively. The one with yellow flowers was regarded as the most useful as a medicine.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. quotes Theodorus Gaza’s translation of Theophrastus (~1454) as the source for Viola Tricolor.
He says that Gaza renders as “viola flammea” (flaming violet) the Greek names used by Theophrastus (φλόγξ ή φλόγιον, φλόγα). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I stand corrected. First, the binomial name system originated before Linnaeus: in the 1500s, with the work of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Second, I see that indeed "viola" was used since the Greek (ἴον) also for several other similar flowers, hence the Gaza/Theophrastus names "honey viola", "purple viola", "flaming viola". But was it used for the pansy? As you say above, Dodoens (late 1500s) identifies Gaza's "flaming viola" as the pansy -- but is that correct?
Is there a source that positively equates the two? Here is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I found that seems to cast doubt on that:
- Die Gleichungen halten jedoch bei genauer Betrachtung nicht stand. Zum Beispiel bezeichnete Jovis flamma eine rotblühende Blume,45 möglicherweise ein Nelkengewächs.46 Viola tricolor wurde im antiken Südeuropa sehr wahrscheinlich nicht als Heilkraut verwendet.
- However, the equations do not hold up under closer scrutiny. For example, Jovis flamma referred to a red-flowering plant,45 possibly a member of the carnation family.46 Viola tricolor was very likely not used as a medicinal herb in ancient Southern Europe.
- Die Gleichungen halten jedoch bei genauer Betrachtung nicht stand. Zum Beispiel bezeichnete Jovis flamma eine rotblühende Blume,45 möglicherweise ein Nelkengewächs.46 Viola tricolor wurde im antiken Südeuropa sehr wahrscheinlich nicht als Heilkraut verwendet.
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RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Doireannjane > 27-11-2025, 04:15 PM
Not Violet or viola. They have heart shaped leaves. I have this one as Germander Speedwell. Note the two distinct leaves. Also just to note: Germander Speedwell is used for the skin as an astringent and anti-inflammatory/anti-itch. Viola is not used to treat the skin. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Aga Tentakulus > 27-11-2025, 04:26 PM
Perhaps one should take into account that planning may also vary depending on the region.
During my research, I noticed that the same flower looks different in eastern Switzerland than it does in the west. This also changes with altitude and climate.
See Viola leaves in the Alps. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Doireannjane > 27-11-2025, 04:32 PM
Not one violet or viola from anywhere has matching leaves. Germander Speedwell does, along with petal patterns. See below Germander Speedwell. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Aga Tentakulus > 27-11-2025, 04:59 PM
I don't know how precisely something has to be drawn in order to understand it.
In more recent drawings, the images show that the tricolour has different types of leaves. This is exactly what the VM_Zeichner conveys.
It simply cannot be any more precise than that. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Doireannjane > 27-11-2025, 05:19 PM
Yep! Exactly. In VMS leaves grow in pairs almost exclusively, like the Germander Speedwell. The images and drawings of viola do not. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 27-11-2025, 05:23 PM
(27-11-2025, 04:59 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In more recent drawings, the images show that the tricolour has different types of leaves.
Yep. I pointed that out already in the 2004 conference. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is definitely the pansy, heartsease, modern name Viola tricolor.
This discussion came from the theory that the scribe was supposed to draw Viola odorata, which is well-known as medicinal herb, but was tricked by the name and drew Viola tricolor instead.
I still don't know whether Viola tricolor has ever been used as medicinal herb. If not, that would be a point in favor of that name-confusion theory: it would explain why that non-medicinal herb got included into what is almost surely a catalog of medicinal herbs.
But I am also still waiting for evidence that the pansy was ever called "viola" before the botanists invented the classification into genera and species. See above. If not, that would negate that name-confusion theory...
All the best, --stolfi