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Viola (odorata or tricolor)
- Viola (odorata or tricolor)
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RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Bernd > 26-11-2025, 06:38 PM
This is why I believe the VM drawing was likely created from a pressed plant. It would have begun wilting almost immediately after harvesting, becoming slightly limp. Just straightening it out on a surface results in upside-down flowers, this would not even require pressing. But flowers would have eventually rolled up while the petals in the VM illustrtion are nicely stretched out.
As of why V. tricolor / arvensis are missing from herbals before the very late 15th century - I have no idea. The question is - are we really missing text or just illustrations? -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Aga Tentakulus > 26-11-2025, 10:01 PM
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RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
ReneZ > 26-11-2025, 11:19 PM
I can accept that the plant apparently shown on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the Voynich MS would not have been associated with the name 'Viola' in the early 15th century. This means that the scenario I proposed, where the 'artist' mistakenly drew the wrong viola, triggered by the appearance of the name, is not too likely.
It still seems possible that he was drawing from descriptions.
For this case, with the upside-down flower, drawing from a dried specimen is quite a credible scenario, but that would not explain why many other plant seem to be composites.
The point remains that he was quite good at drawing realistic details.
A combination of drawing from nature and drawing from earlier illlustrations, in a single book, is not at all unusal.
With respect to recognising the important distinguishing features of plants, the classical works of Theophrastus go into that, but it was notoriously unknown in the middle ages. It seems to have appeared in Padova right about the time of the creation of the Voynich MS, brought there by Aurispa. It was only translated to Latin in 1483.
A typical example is the distinction between alternating and opposite leaves, which was largely ignored, and can be seen to appear combined in the same plant in many old herbals. I don't know if anyone ever did a detailed check of this in the Voynich MS. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 27-11-2025, 03:26 AM
(26-11-2025, 03:12 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.how sensitive were people circa 1400 to this taxonomy?
The concept of taxonomy itself is a modern thing, attributed to Carl Linnaeus (Linné) who grouped species into genera and invented the binomial name system (Genus species). Again, don't think anyone in the Middle Ages would have used the name Viola for the pansy.
All the best, --stolfi
(26-11-2025, 06:38 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As of why V. tricolor / arvensis are missing from herbals before the very late 15th century - I have no idea. The question is - are we really missing text or just illustrations?
Herbals usually listed only plants with medicinal use. Are there medical uses for the pansy?
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 27-11-2025, 04:15 AM
(26-11-2025, 10:01 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the Odorata sweet violet.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could be Viola odorata, but there are no really definite matches. Every key feature require some tolerance to match:
- The leaves of V. odorata are roundish but actually You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., with the stalk attached to the notch. Those of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are round, with the stalk attached to the center.
- The leaves of V. odorata have You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Those of f11v f11r have fewer and larger teeth.
- The leaves of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are shown to form a compact cluster, like a cauliflower. Those of V.odorata form clusters too, but nowhere as compact as those of f11v You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- The leaves of V. odorata grow You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Those of f11v f11r are shown growing from the top of a significant stem.
- At the bottom of the canopy of f11v f11r there are two pairs of leaves with fused stems. V. odorata obviously has no such thing, but maybe those paired leaves are a completely botched attempt to draw its You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (reproductive shoots).
- The roots of f11v f11r have some resemblance to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of V. odorata , but the latter are smaller in proportion to the plant, and often absent.
- The flowers of V. odorata have five petals. the flowers of f11v f11r have only three visible petals; none is shown face-on, so the other two petals must be assumed.
- The flowers of V. odorata have a noticeable calyx, and a vertical stalk that stands clear of the leaves and droops at the end. The flowers of f11v f11r sprout straight from the leaf ball and no stalk or calyx is visible.
So, again, while f11v f11r could be V. odorata, that identification is only a partial approximate match, by no means certain.
And, again, the colors on the VMS should be ignored.
All the best, --stolfi - The leaves of V. odorata are roundish but actually You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., with the stalk attached to the notch. Those of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are round, with the stalk attached to the center.
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RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Aga Tentakulus > 27-11-2025, 06:20 AM
(27-11-2025, 04:15 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, again, while You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could be V. odorata, that identification is only a partial approximate match, by no means certain.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is definitely not Odorata, that's a cone head.
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You've got something mixed up. And Odorata is drawn very accurately.
Even the leaf with two stalks is correct. Look closely, there are two leaves and they are round-toothed.
Everything is correct. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
MarcoP > 27-11-2025, 08:48 AM
The text for Viola in Manfredus You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view./v is badly faded. This is what I can read:
Viola frigida est in primo gradu, humida in fine secundi / … a dyoscorides “Leucius” dicitur. Cuius trest sunt / species … … melinum / [160v] et album et purpureum florem ostendit. Sed / mellinus color medicine necessarius est. …
The text appears to follow You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
De leucoyon. Omnibus notus est, sed in flores distantias habet, quia mellinum et album et purpureum florem ostendit. sed mellinum colorem medicine necessarius est. qui <si> siecu uel elixatu fuerit et fomento adibeatur, tumores stericos curat, menstruis imperat….
So this tradition lists three different kinds of Viola with yellow, white and purple flowers respectively. The one with yellow flowers was regarded as the most useful as a medicine.
EDIT
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. quotes Theodorus Gaza’s translation of Theophrastus (~1454) as the source for Viola Tricolor.
He says that Gaza renders as “viola flammea” (flaming violet) the Greek names used by Theophrastus (φλόγξ ή φλόγιον, φλόγα). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a paper by Ute Holtzegel, discusses how the plant appeared in European texts during the Renaissance. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Aga Tentakulus > 27-11-2025, 09:04 AM
According to the encyclopaedia, some species have a significant effect and others have none at all.
Encyclopaedia.
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RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 27-11-2025, 11:26 AM
(27-11-2025, 06:20 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-11-2025, 04:15 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, again, while You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could be V. odorata, that identification is only a partial approximate match, by no means certain.
F11v is definitely not Odorata, that's a cone head.
Oops, I got the right page but the wrong number. Everything I wrote above is about f11r. Fixing it...
Otherwise, I stand by everything else I wrote. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could be an attempt to depict Viola odorata, but to get a match one must assume that the artist made more or less serious errors on every detail.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
ReneZ > 27-11-2025, 12:21 PM
Probably not too important for us now, but I note two different dates for Gaza's translation of Theophrastus. I got mine (the later one) from a Wiki page, and cannot vouch for its accuracy.