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The Cliffs of Moher
- The Cliffs of Moher
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RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Jorge_Stolfi > 21-11-2025, 09:54 AM
(21-11-2025, 07:45 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The ink used was waterproof
It definitely was not. There are many cases where text and drawings were blurred or washed away by spilled liquids or being painted over with runny paint.
(21-11-2025, 07:45 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Copper alloy quills could account for the additional cuprite found.
AFAIK metal quills only became commonly availiable in the 1800s or so. And they were made of steel; copper would wear out much faster. And a copper quill would not shed off enough patina to be detectable.
The copper that McCrone found in inks was trace amounts, not significant.
(21-11-2025, 08:56 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.we know what the inks and pigments are
Actually we do not know what the inks are. We only know that they are iron-based (except the quire numbers, that are probably lampblack, and the red ink of f67r2, which AFAIK has not been analyzed yet), but apparently not iron-gall. We know what some of the paint pigments are (azurite for some of the blue, iron or lead oxides for the browns and rusty-browns); but we don't know what the translucent yellow paint is, and of the green paint we only know that it is copper-based but is not crystalline.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Koen G > 21-11-2025, 09:55 AM
(21-11-2025, 09:46 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ah ok, so in addition to the copper nib of the quill contributing additional copper and cuprite, the distinct hematite and palmierite components of the red ochre could be directly linked to Ireland.
Do you mean "they had this stuff in Ireland too" or "this points to Ireland specifically over other places"?
The first one would not be surprising, since substances like ochre are abundant worldwide. The second case would actually add weight to your theory, but requires some more argumentation than a link to a commercial website. -
RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Doireannjane > 21-11-2025, 10:14 AM
To Stolfi
Iron Gall ink is water resistant and favored in the Mediterranean for this reason. Not waterproof. Water resistant.
In Ireland they were using copper nib pens in the 1400s. See article below again. This could absolutely be detectable. It even says the word traces on the chemical testing.
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RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Doireannjane > 21-11-2025, 10:22 AM
The cuperite specifically, was found in the azurite which would have needed the most mixing. -
RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Jorge_Stolfi > 21-11-2025, 11:09 AM
(21-11-2025, 10:14 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Iron Gall ink is water resistant and favored in the Mediterranean for this reason. Not waterproof. Water resistant.
Well, the ink of the VMS is not "water resistant" either.
Not that it makes much difference to the origin theory. Writing on vellum with a non-waterproof ink would make no sense anywhere.
Quote:In Ireland they were using copper nib pens in the 1400s. See article below again. This could absolutely be detectable. It even says the word traces on the chemical testing.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
That looks like the same ink drafting instrument that must have been used to draw the circles of the VMS, only for use with a straightedge instead of compass. An illustration from the epoch was posted somewhere in this forum not long ago. Namely, two metal blades (not points) with the tips pressed together, with a gap above that to hold some ink. That same article quotes expert Tim O'Neil as saying "It would have worked well for ruling straight lines to form, for instance, a frame for a page."
Thus it would not have been used to write the text, or the freehand figure outlines.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Jorge_Stolfi > 21-11-2025, 11:15 AM
(21-11-2025, 10:14 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This could absolutely be detectable.
Sorry, it would not. "Traces" in the McCrone report means maybe 0.01% of the ink by weight. No way a copper pen would shed that much copper while writing. Those traces of copper in the ink probably were dust from the green paint used nearby.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Doireannjane > 21-11-2025, 11:23 AM
(21-11-2025, 11:15 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(21-11-2025, 10:14 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This could absolutely be detectable.
Sorry, it would not. "Traces" in the McCrone report means maybe 0.01% of the ink by weight. No way a copper pen would shed that much copper while writing. Those traces of copper in the ink probably were dust from the green paint used nearby.
All the best, --stolfi
You have a background in computer science, what are your credentials exactly to determine that with complete certainty? -
RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Doireannjane > 21-11-2025, 11:30 AM
Traces of copper, like a bit of the nib, would most likely appear in the largest amount in the ink and blue paint since it needs the most mixing/breaking of sediment. And that’s reflected in the results/data -
RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Jorge_Stolfi > 21-11-2025, 02:29 PM
(21-11-2025, 11:30 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Traces of copper, like a bit of the nib, would most likely appear in the largest amount in the ink and blue paint since it needs the most mixing/breaking of sediment. And that’s reflected in the results/data
What are your qualifications to say that?
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RE: The Cliffs of Moher
Doireannjane > 21-11-2025, 04:07 PM
Well, I’ve said nothing untrue here, Im just considering possibilities. You however just said with certainty that Iron Gall Ink which was used, is not water resistant, when that is a quality it absolutely possesses(whether effective or not). A simple search will tell you that. You are mistaken here.
Shall I turn to the plants/images now since both of us are clearly not professionals in this department?