• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

How to square handwriting variation?

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Analysis of the text
  • How to square handwriting variation?
• How to square handwriting variation?

• How to square handwriting variation?

  Skoove > 30-10-2025, 08:58 AM

  I know this is a frequent issue that transliterators come across and it is also an issue for any sort of solution to the script itself. These three EVA-sh ligatures (see below) on f4r are all in a row but all have a different form and shape. How can one square these differences? This page was written by scribe 1 which tends to have the best handwritting out of the scribes as well which makes it even more confusing. 
  
  They are obviously other examples like this which I know have lead some to create much larger alphabets like the GC transliteration, but at what point should we give the scribe the benefit of the doubt on their less than perfect handwritting and when should we treat any deviation as meaningful? 
  
  The answer is likely 'there is no answer' but I wonder to what degree the communities efforts is split on small variations like these and how much it obfuscates the text itself.

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  oshfdk > 30-10-2025, 10:43 AM

  (30-10-2025, 08:58 AM)Skoove Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know this is a frequent issue that transliterators come across and it is also an issue for any sort of solution to the script itself. These three EVA-sh ligatures (see below) on f4r are all in a row but all have a different form and shape. How can one square these differences? This page was written by scribe 1 which tends to have the best handwritting out of the scribes as well which makes it even more confusing. 

  
  If you consider the size of the text, the variations are not that big. When I try writing really small letters, even with a good writing tool, the shapes vary a lot, because there is a limit to how precise you can be with the direction and the position. I can keep it neat for a few words, but I certainly won't be able to keep precise shapes for pages, and the moment you relax your control it gets comparable to the Voynich MS variation for me. 
  
  Here's a Voynich MS page with a standard USB plug roughly to scale, from the known dimensions of the MS itself.
  
     

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  Bluetoes101 > 30-10-2025, 11:01 AM

  Personally, I think they probably matter. To me your first example looks like the modification to make "r" is added to the bench, the second one has the modification to make "l" added to the bench. But as you allude to, you will probably find people on both sides with arguments both ways, the truth is probably that we don't know.

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  Jorge_Stolfi > 30-10-2025, 01:14 PM

  (30-10-2025, 08:58 AM)Skoove Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These three EVA-sh ligatures (see below) on f4r are all in a row but all have a different form and shape. How can one square these differences.

  
  My answer is that some of the differences are partly just normal handwriting variations (as others pointed out, the letters are very small: the o-height in that text is less 1.5 mm) and partly the result of most of the text having been restored by someone who was very careful but did not even know the alphabet.
  
  Check the lower part of the plume on the second Sh of that line, or the lower part of the stem of the q on the line above.  I believe that the all original writing on that page had already faded to that state, or worse, centuries ago.  Practically all of the text we see now is restoration.  The bits of original text that were not retraced, like those two examples, are parts that had faded less.
  
  The original plumes were drawn with a quick swish of the pen from the bottom up and turning counterclockwise.   But the top part of most plumes was retraced slowly in the wrong direction (clockwise), giving them a crooked and forced look, often with a distinct break where they join the original trace.  On a signature, that sort of thing would be obvious evidence of amateur forgery.
  
  On line 2, next to the plant, after the word Chaiin there is an invalid glyph that resembles the right stroke of an o.  My guess is that either there was an o there, whose left stroke faded to complete invisibility; or there was nothing there, and the Retracer just hallucinated that half-o.  Either way, I take that as evidence that the Retracer did not know the Voynichese alphabet.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  nablator > 30-10-2025, 01:39 PM

  (30-10-2025, 08:58 AM)Skoove Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.but at what point should we give the scribe the benefit of the doubt on their less than perfect handwritting and when should we treat any deviation as meaningful? 

  
  Whenever "we" (the few people who wrote transliterations) feel that some deviation from the basic shapes is systematic and not accidental, and therefore possibly meaningful.

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  JoJo_Jost > 30-10-2025, 05:53 PM

  (30-10-2025, 08:58 AM)Skoove Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The answer is likely 'there is no answer' but I wonder to what degree the communities efforts is split on small variations like these and how much it obfuscates the text itself.
  
  

  
  Of course it makes a difference, and here you can see it very clearly. As we know, these small letters stand for omitted letters.
  
  The sign which looks like a mirrored c, stands for “us, os, is, s” so the letters can be inserted here. But also a 9 with a straight tail pointing downwards. But mostly at the end of a word.
  
  The y stands here for "er", which will give the word a completely different meaning. 
  
  The hat, i.e. the last ligature, also exists, but I can't find it right now (there are 14,000 ligatures in the dictionary) and it has yet another meaning, but it could also be a faded 9.
  
  And to make matters worse, the "u" for “ur” could also be written with a tail pointing downwards, which looks similar to a 9, but has a different meaning.
  
  So it is important. Similarly, the two “c”s in “ch” can also represent different letters.
  
  And to make it even crazier, the letter can simply be the extension of an S, as is done in the "sh" transcription. And the mirroed S as a con = conc...
  
  Normally, this is clear from the context... big laugh here...
  
  I won't even mention the line between the c's...   sh =  conmc (joke)????
  
     
  
     
  Übersetzt: A very similar sign to "us" is sometimes found above certain consonants with the meaning “er,” but not at the end of the word, as in

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  JoJo_Jost > 30-10-2025, 06:48 PM

  I ve found it:
  
     
  
  = cir..... okaaay 
  
  
  And here are the different versions in words—I actually want to publish everything I've found in a new thread about ligatures and brevigraphs. But that's still to come Or does such a thread already exist?
  
     

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  rikforto > 24-11-2025, 05:42 PM

  Found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and thought of this thread:
     
  
  There is a lot here that I don't think is wholly down to handwriting variation and the difficulties of writing small, though that could well be in play too. The first character looks to me like an s stacked on top of an e, not just the usual flourish added to an e, and very deliberately so. The second word has a well-formed y over it, not just the standard flourish. There is also the standard paleographic comma in the middle that I cannot make sense of and does not appear in the Takeshi transcription (I did not check others).
  
  Now, I'm the first to say there is nothing like putting forward a "looks like" post to get a bunch of "no it doesn't" responses, but I'd be curious what others think here. I've noticed this pattern elsewhere, and from other scribes, but this little snippet seemed especially clear and compact

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  oshfdk > 24-11-2025, 06:05 PM

  (24-11-2025, 05:42 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is a lot here that I don't think is wholly down to handwriting variation and the difficulties of writing small, though that could well be in play too. The first character looks to me like an s stacked on top of an e, not just the usual flourish added to an e, and very deliberately so. The second word has a well-formed y over it, not just the standard flourish. There is also the standard paleographic comma in the middle that I cannot make sense of and does not appear in the Takeshi transcription (I did not check others).

  
  I'd say the first s looks like a very normal misaligned s. I think (almost) all of s are written with two strokes that are misaligned quite often. Loops in flourishes happen quite often too, and "arin/ariin" combinations do occur a few times, so this could just be saiin sarin, with sloppy pen work that caused misaligned flourishes. If, on the other hand, you consider steganography, this could be anything.
  
  Note that the grid on your images is roughly 10mm, if these are just errors from unsteady hand, these are tiny and may have not even warranted fixing from the point of view of the scribe.

• RE: How to square handwriting variation?

  Rafal > 24-11-2025, 06:24 PM

  Unfortunetely to decide which differences in letters are meaningful and which aren't you have to understand the text or have experience with people writing in different alphabet in different ways.
  
  How do you know that all three letters in the top are A and three in the bottom are F?
  
  
  It's your cultural background. It wouldn't be obvious to a Martian that they are the same letter.
  
  With Voynich we neither understand it nor have other texts for comparison. So the cut-off point will be subjective and arbitrary.
• Next Oldest Next Newest