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New images: Marci letter wax
- New images: Marci letter wax
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Jorge_Stolfi > 12-10-2025, 01:55 PM
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
LisaFaginDavis > 12-10-2025, 02:15 PM
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Jorge_Stolfi > 12-10-2025, 08:24 PM
(12-10-2025, 02:15 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Beckx ex libris plates are separate, digitized here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.5
Thanks! (The link is broken, but You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..)
Why o why couldn't Medieval scribes write with such a clear and elegant script?
But none of those ex libris is the one that was attached to the VMS, correct?
All the best, --jorge -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
LisaFaginDavis > 12-10-2025, 08:44 PM
My understanding is that there wasn't a Beckx slip attached to the manuscript. The collection of slips was associated with the manuscript and came with it to the Beinecke along with all of the other ephemera. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
ReneZ > Yesterday, 12:03 AM
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
ReneZ > Yesterday, 12:09 PM
(12-10-2025, 02:15 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also, it occurs to me that another way of working on the watermark might be to look at other letters from Marci in the 1660s and see if any of them are from the same stock.
I have sent out a couple of requests, but I don't have great expectations.
In any case, the Marci letter is precisely dated and we know where it was written. Same for all the other ones. The paper may still have come from a wider German area.
Rudolf seems to have bought his paper and parchment mainly from Memmingen.
With respect to the letters to Kircher still preserved in Rome, if no study was made until now, it seems unlikely that this will still be done, as these letters are in a precarious state due to 'sub-optimal' preservation activities in the 1960's. Fortunately, they have all been digitised. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
proto57 > Yesterday, 05:38 PM
(12-10-2025, 01:08 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, I read it as three bells with a cross at the top. This is a common motif in early-modern paper. And yes, it's true that for the most part both Briquet and Piccard are pre-1600 so unlikely to find a match there.
Lisa... thank you for examining the Marci letter, and especially for sharing the watermark. I echo Rene's surprise that there WAS a watermark, and it also surprised me that no previous mention was made of it. I have long wanted to examine this letter, and on my list of "to do's" were the chains and lines measurements, accurate overall measurement, macro photograph of the seals, among other things... and also, looking for a watermark, which I in no way would have expected to find.
As for identifying the watermark, it could be three bells, but I favor the possibility it is actually three hats, with tassels. I don't think the hanging items are bell clappers, as they hang down too far. So I shifted to looking through the various books and other internet sources for that possibility.
Apparently, hats with tassels are "a thing", known as "tre cappelli". From You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
"The watermark features a motif of three brimmed hats with cords hanging down. A popular mark among Italian papermakers of the late 17th through early 19th centuries, the mark is also known as tre cappelli, Italian for "three hats."
"In fact, a number of different three hats marks are known, featuring hats of varying designs and styles. The form of hat tends to reflect the influences of the region of origin, from clerical hats with cords to tall hats with feathers in Austrian style."
From Google AI:
"A watermark of three hats with tassels, known as tre cappelli, was a popular mark used by Italian papermakers from the late 17th through the early 19th centuries.
- Tre cappelli watermark
"Description: This mark features a motif of three brimmed hats with cords or tassels hanging down.
Origin: It originated with Italian papermakers and was frequently used during the 17th and 18th centuries."
I haven't yet found this one, but maybe I will, or someone else here will find it, if this is the correct interpretation.
EDIT TO ADD: I found this one, which is really close... I think it shows that the Marci watermark may actually be three hats, with brims and tassels:
From: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
LisaFaginDavis > Yesterday, 06:25 PM
Oh, well done! Yes, that's almost certainly it! Unfortunately, I neglected to measure the chain lines and the dimensions of the watermark, but I will remember to do that the next time I have the opportunity. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
proto57 > Yesterday, 06:45 PM
(Yesterday, 06:25 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh, well done! Yes, that's almost certainly it! Unfortunately, I neglected to measure the chain lines and the dimensions of the watermark, but I will remember to do that the next time I have the opportunity.
That would be great, if you could do that! I've tried in the past with the online images, but it is too difficult to get the scale correct. I don't know if this would be doable, but I would love to meet you there, and I could bring my counting/measuring loupe and macro lens for the seal closeups.
But if that is too complicated, of course whenever you have the chance to do it, it would be wonderful...
Rich -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Jorge_Stolfi > Yesterday, 07:04 PM
(Yesterday, 06:45 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it is too difficult to get the scale correct.
The VMS pages are said to be ~235 mm tall. On most single-page BL 2014 images the tallest pages are ~3570 pixels tall, which gives a scale of ~15 px/mm or 386 px/in or 0.0658 mm/px.
For the Marci letter, one could get a rough estimate from the folds reported by Rene, assuming that they were meant to make the letter fit inside the cover.
All the best, --jorge