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Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
- Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
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RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
R. Sale > 08-10-2025, 05:40 PM
I'm no cartographer, but... the area outlined on the map in Post #19 would seem to have a fair amount of overlap with the historical Burgundian State during the VMs C-14 dates.
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Mention of the Burgundian State (post 1430) brings up 'pre-historical' references to potential interpretations of the "notorious G. Fleece" in the VMs. Once associated with mythical Melusine of Luxembourg, who is herself now seen as a reputed ancestral connection to the Valois descendants of Bonne of Luxembourg. And second of the fleece being overlaid with an image of the Agnus Dei, in a particular structural arrangement found only in a manuscript [BNF Fr. 13096 f. 18] that was once part of the Burgundian library.
This was a cultural high point - so they say - and it would have drawn in many external influences. Not to mention the Portuguese. -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Koen G > 09-10-2025, 11:02 AM
(09-10-2025, 04:06 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some definite 'zig-zag-zigging' happening here.
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A 1460 recopy of Epitre d'Othea.
Wow, look at those spikes!
Obviously, this MS can't score very high because it's not a cursive script, but still I find it very illuminating. It shows many features that are hard to find in regular cursive. I think we can assume the Month Name writer was used to writing like this, and had it show through in their cursive.
It shares these properties with the Month Name script, which are hard to find in cursives:- Actually long spikes on "e"
- hairline on "t"
- sharp upward curve at the bottom of "t"
- usually a very short horizontal top of long-s
- very flat, horizontal top loop of "d"...
I'm pondering two things now:- If people tended to base their cursive on their book script, there was probably a sliding scale of how much of the book script shone through. Does it even make sense to compare then?
- On the other hand, I am certain now that this person's book script shines through to a great extent. Was there sufficient regional variation in book scripts to compare these?
- Actually long spikes on "e"
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RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
R. Sale > 09-10-2025, 11:23 PM
Looking through 15th C. manuscripts, specifically regarding the letter "e' and how the upper right marking was made, there appear to be several variations. One results in a diamond shape with extensions at the top and bottom. Variations in the precision with which contact is made with the writing surface result in different (longer or shorter) zig-zag shapes, Premature loss of contact results in a sideways 'U' shape.
Other methods of constructing the "e" closure produce a reversed crescent "c" shape or a diamond shape with the extensions on the sides rather than top and bottom. And there may be other variations.
Do these other types of "e" closures belong to different variations of writing style? -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
MarcoP > 10-10-2025, 06:57 AM
The connection of the spiked-e with bastarda/batarde was pointed out by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
It is certainly relevant. A problem we have is that bastarda was a highly calligraphic style and was often found in luxury books written by professional scribes whose job was creating such books. The 1460 Bodmer ms is a good example, a richly illustrated book commissioned by a noble bibliophile (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - “He was a significant collector of illuminated manuscripts, mostly newly commissioned from the best Flemish illuminators and scribes”).
The month names are at the opposite end of the quality spectrum: hasty informal notes squeezed and abbreviated to fit into small spaces. I still think that our best bet is looking at charters, which are typically written with an intermediated accuracy (not as badly as the months, not as carefully as a high-end book); they also come with a well-defined date and place, so they can help us understand more of when/where the month names were written. Private letters could be another interesting line to investigate (e.g. was Antoine's own script comparable with the scripts in the books he commissioned? - assuming he wrote some of his letters himself). -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
davidma > 10-10-2025, 08:13 PM
I have got a few. Would like to go through them myself but I don't feel very confident in evaluating the scores. I do think some of them look quite similar.
Cod. Sang. 827: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (also interesting similarities with VM zodiacs drawings)
Ag 2.38: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Cod. Bodmer 103: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
S. 94: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Cod. Sang 1141: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Cod. Sang 760: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (this one I find particularly interesting the moon and sun on f4 and f5, looks a lot like the VM) -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Koen G > 11-10-2025, 12:32 PM
I added the first one, but it scored low: it is much more like the script of f116v. I could see that the two next samples also wouldn't score very high, so I skipped them.
S. 94 is different though. I landed on a score of 0.70, but as always with high scores, I'll wait until Marco can double check this (there is always a subjective component). It may go down a bit, but would still be the highest score so far.
There is still room for improvement though, for example the construction of "a" is different. But a good find overall!
Unfortunately date and place provided are vague or uncertain: "Northern Switzerland (?) 15th century" -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
MarcoP > 12-10-2025, 07:52 AM
Many thanks to davidma! You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is excellent indeed.
Some random comments:
- ‘e’ is variable, but the general type is the spiked one we are looking for;
- ‘p’ has the correct open top;
- ‘b’ and ‘l’ have narrow ascenders (which is not a common feature in the 15th century);
- the ‘st’ ligature has the simple arch that also occurs in ‘augst’;
- ‘g’ has the right shape and appears to be traced in a similar way, but the right-hand side is almost always open, it looks like '5'; Koen pointed out that it's similar to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and I totally agree;
- ‘a’ and ‘t’ are peculiar and different from the Voynich months;
- initial ‘M’ is also very close (it appears in the second line of 1r).
- ‘e’ is variable, but the general type is the spiked one we are looking for;
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RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
ReneZ > 12-10-2025, 09:26 AM
Is it the first case of German - instead of French - writing? -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Koen G > 12-10-2025, 11:39 AM
(12-10-2025, 09:26 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is it the first case of German - instead of French - writing?
The way I see it, we haven't really gotten to the point yet where we can compare much. Scores of .6 are okay, but not exceptional. This one was the best so far (.66) but there is still room for improvement, specifically "a" and "t", which as Marco says are rather unusual in this MS. We currently have some 25 examples, while for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it took a couple of hundred to get a clear picture.
Compared to f116v, I personally find it harder to get a grasp on the month names script, so I'm very grateful for everyone's input so far. Keep 'em coming!
Marco mentioned f57v; here's an illustration: