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Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
- Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
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RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Aga Tentakulus > 07-10-2025, 05:54 AM
What interests me is not April itself, but how it was written: ‘dabril’ (d'abril, de abril).
The ‘d’ is attached to the word in exactly the same way as I have seen in Venetian: ‘daqua’ (d'aqua, de aqua).
But also in Switzerland. ‘dFrau’ (d Frau), but with the capitalisation clearly visible today.
I see exactly the same thing in VM. (8aiin, 8'aiin 8 aiin).
It's just a comparison, but you can see it too. And the ‘p-b’ tone shift is well known. -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Koen G > 07-10-2025, 09:02 AM
In my understanding (based on recent, limited experience), the letter "e" in this kind of script always consists of two parts. I tried to draw it in the image below:
The bottom stroke is integrated in the cursive, connected "string" of letters. But then the scribe needs to go back in the same way we cross our t's and dot our i's: "e" needs to be topped. This top in its most complete form has three parts, like a zigzag lightning bolt thing. You often see this in formal gothic scripts.
- In the Month Name cursive, it looks something like my left "e", with an excessively tall spike.
- What you see often in medieval writing, is the middle type, where "e" is topped with a little "cup". This is because the the closing stroke (blue) isn't made.
- Nowadays, we are used to "e" as I've drawn on the right, without the top "spike". This is also found in many medieval scripts, of course.
The month name scribe uses left and middle. But he seems to have a preference for the "full" zigzag as it were, which also happens to be a standout feature. So that's the one we're tracking.
- In the Month Name cursive, it looks something like my left "e", with an excessively tall spike.
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RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Jorge_Stolfi > 07-10-2025, 11:02 AM
(07-10-2025, 05:54 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What interests me is not April itself, but how it was written: ‘dabril’ (d'abril, de abril).The ‘d’ is attached to the word in exactly the same way as I have seen in Venetian: ‘daqua’ (d'aqua, de aqua).
Several Romance languages contract prepositions with some articles and other words: French "du", Italian "nella", etc. Spanish does not seem to do that much, but Portuguese goes to the other extreme. Not only with dozens of function words -- "pra", "num", "neles", "disso", "daqui", "naquele", ... -- but also some common words, like "d'água" = "of water". Although in the last case the modern spelling requires an apostrophe. The "d'abril" is still seen and heard, although more in Portugal than in Brazil, and it may be ceding space to "de abril" in any formal setting.
All the best, --jorge -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
magnesium > 07-10-2025, 05:09 PM
Koen, this is quite good: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
See 1r for some very good examples of the month names' E and Y. 122v has some good D examples. 123r features what looks like a double L and, by my eye, has a couple of Bs. 124r has some Ts with tall ascenders.
It's not perfect; the P is wrong, for example, as is the capital M. But to second Koen, the month names' E is distinctive enough to narrow things down.
Edit: This one, also from Lausanne, is very good too: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Koen G > 07-10-2025, 09:42 PM
I added both, the second one is quite a bit better in my opinion. The first one also has a really weird "g", and "r" is different in both.
The second one has some clear "zigzags" on "e". It's making me realize how excessively tall the spikes on the month names "e" really are though. If this preference has a regional component at all, it might be our way in. -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
R. Sale > 07-10-2025, 10:53 PM
In the investigation of "e", the focus is on the secondary mark in the upper right, and how that mark was made. In the Lausanne text from Post #14, all examples of "e" are consistent in form. It looks like a scribal hand. There is a point of entry, a perpendicular mark, and an exit. Three motions <zig-zag-zig>; one mark <the zag>. Not three clear and equal marks.
The VMs month names are not in a scribal hand. They are in a casual or common hand - a person's normal style of writing. Consequently, the actual representations of the secondary marks are all over the place. One hit (first example, second line in Post #12) and four misses. Failed attempts but with the same three motions. Overly casual, poor penmanship. -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Koen G > 07-10-2025, 10:58 PM
Imagine someone saying such things about my grocery list
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RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
magnesium > 08-10-2025, 01:27 AM
I'm just starting to dig into the available archives here, but a cursory review of the e-codices Swiss archives reveals two things quickly from at least those records:
1. The "zig-zag-zig" E is extremely uncommon, especially the exaggerated "spiky" form present in the VMS.
2. The closest Es within e-codices manuscripts are tightly constrained to French-language documents written in the early 15th century that reside within collections in French-influenced western Switzerland.
Koen, the second of my two e-codices manuscripts is also from Lausanne (or is at least from a Lausanne collection): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
My hunch is that the handwriting and month names can be jointly constrained to southern France (Occitania) or French-German regions such as western Switzerland in the early 15th century. And if the month names were an addition to the VMS but also of the early 15th century, the implication is that they were added by either the VMS's first bookbinder or its first post-binding owner (following Lisa Davis's recent presentation arguing that the VMS was originally many stacked single folios). -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
Koen G > 08-10-2025, 10:17 AM
It is probably worth checking out some Occitan sources (especially those close to the Iberian peninsula?) because of Aberil. But everything else does seem to point to a French/Germanic border region as I very roughly circled on this map:
Octembre seems to point to the northern/northeastern borders (see our spreadsheet: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
Augst is Germanic. From the original Latin "Augustus", French dialects tend to drop the "g" (Aoust) but certain Germanic dialects like to drop the second "u", resulting in forms like "Augst". In modern Dutch, the standard word for "harvest" is still "oogst", from "oogstmaand", "Augustmonth". In some German dialects, you may still find Augst. Again, I don't think this helps us narrow it down much.
There is quite some distance between the French border with Dutch, Spanish and Alemannic though, so I hope handwriting analysis may help us out here. -
RE: Finding parallels for Month Names handwriting (Work in Progress)
quimqu > 08-10-2025, 11:16 AM
Hello Koen,
Take a look at the manuscript I found in this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The months are not exactly the same, but they ressemble in some characters:
The e are usually written like this:
some st like:
p look like this sometimes:
If I am not wrong, b, look also nice:
n and g also look good, I think:
Look at this e also:
Take a look to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. if you want. There are several hands. It is curious that the writting is not neat. They include also the t gallows I found in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the p characters that ressemble the qo in the Voynich (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). I think it is worth surfing the manuscript. At the end there are some tables with the months and zodiac names. According to the website, it is written in latin and occitan.