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why the voynich ist celtic
- why the voynich ist celtic
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why the voynich ist celtic
Petrasti > 21-09-2025, 12:26 PM
In the appendix, I have combined PDFs with texts from the University of Chicago, the Celtic scholar and medievalist Helmut Birkhand, and the naturopath and shaman Wolf Dieter Schorl with images of the voynich manuscript. As I mentioned in my post "A Journey into an unknown World" In the Voynich manuscript we find ourselves in a pagan Celtic worldview with a language mix of Celtic and Old or Middle English. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In a very interesting new article by quimqu, "Automated Topic Analysis of the Voynich Manuscript," a PC-based program assigns words from the manuscript to topics. According to this analysis, the biological and cosmological sections belong to Topic 1 and thus to the same topic.
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I'm also adding Dana's post, which suggests a "spurtle" in the hand of a nymph. Spurtle have been used in Scotland since the Middle Ages.
There was a nice post on folio f85r2 that, based on the figure in the south with the "cloud rings," attributes the manuscript to an English origin. Unfortunately, I can't find that post anymore. If anyone still has the post, it would be great if you could attach it.
It's also understandable how a Celtic pagan manuscript could have been written in northern Italy. Scottish monasteries and wandering monks from Scotland and Ireland were widespread in southern Germany and Switzerland during this period
the celtic moon and month.pdf (Size: 436.19 KB / Downloads: 38)
the nymphs, Helmut Birkhan.pdf (Size: 238.01 KB / Downloads: 27)
Poppy flower.pdf (Size: 441.39 KB / Downloads: 14)
nymphs and cetics.pdf (Size: 1.56 MB / Downloads: 16)
Plant Riutals by Wolf Dieter Storl.pdf (Size: 415.54 KB / Downloads: 18)
handfasting a wunderful old tradition.pdf (Size: 189.08 KB / Downloads: 18)
Spurtle.pdf (Size: 172.52 KB / Downloads: 8)
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RE: why the voynich ist celtic
ReneZ > 22-09-2025, 05:14 AM
(21-09-2025, 12:26 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Size: 238.01 KB / Downloads: 8)
Just to understand....
What exactly is the connection between the quoted text and the images of the nymphs in the Voynich MS, beside that you put them together? -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Petrasti > 22-09-2025, 10:31 AM
Hi ReneZ, I chose Helmut Birkhan's text because it describes a real connection to the Middle Ages and the perspective on plants. Often, Celtic is mentioned primarily in the context of Roman, which is far removed from the Voynich manuscript and its writers on the timeline. Therefore, Mr. Birkhan's reference was important to me. I'll see if I can find another article on plant devas and attach it to this post. Regards -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Petrasti > 27-09-2025, 06:21 PM
Here is a summary of some literature about plants and their elves and spirits. England and Ireland are particularly influenced by the Celtic influence in this context.
Source and further reading T.F. Thiselton Dyer, Folk-lore of Plants, 1889. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
"Page 42
If we briefly examine the prehistory of plant worship, it appears to form the basis of ancient Celtic beliefs, although few records of this have come down to us.^ In any case, there is ample evidence that this form of belief occupied a prominent position in the religion of these peoples, to which many early classical writers allude. Thus, the very name Druidry is evidence of the Celtic predilection for tree worship, and as further evidence of this, De Brosses^ derived the word "kirk," which today is weakened to "church," from "quercus," an oak; this species was particularly sacred. When examining ancient Germanic beliefs, we also encounter the same references to tree worship, which in many respects differs little or not at all from that of the Celts. To explain this, Mr. Keary suggests that "the nature of the Germanic commandments applies, with only some slight modifications, to the beliefs of the predecessors of the Germans in Northern and Western Europe. Undoubtedly, in prehistoric times, the Germanic tribes and the Celts intermingled so
summary You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (translated by DeepL into English)"
Elves in the meadows, gardens and forests - The elves and the realm of plants
"The gate opens,
Time stands still,
Only those who are honest will fare well"
Plants have a strong connection to the realm of elves and fairies - and flowers and plants often form a bridge between the worlds...
There are legends about the mysterious mandrake and many fairy tales even attribute magical powers to the root. Mistletoe is also known as a magical remedy - the Germanic tribes in particular attributed supernatural powers to the plant. The same goes for the black hellebore, the popular name for the Christmas rose - we also know it as a magical remedy from old fairy tales.
Children once listened to stories in which a nutshell served as a vehicle for the elves... People looked at the foxglove flowers with different eyes: it was thought that the elves used them as swinging colourful skirts. In England, the cowslip was popularly known in some places as the ‘elf's cup’ and in Germany, too, the ‘cowslip’ was a flower that symbolised prosperity and good fortune. Tulips were regarded as cradles for fairy babies. In England, ragwort and cabbage stalks were referred to as ‘horses of the fairies’ and sometimes, it was quietly said, the fairies even took humans with them on their journey. Well, not always voluntarily and often the humans were more or less forced to do so...
So, according to the old legends, the elves had control over certain plants and inexplicable things happened in nature... Nature was full of magic and the boundaries between the realm of the elves and the human world were often blurred...
As the elves and nature beings are so closely connected to the plant kingdom, it is not surprising that people assumed that flowers and trees were under the protection of the Little People. Anyone who wanted to find out more about nature creatures would follow the old legends and look for a four-leaf clover. Because, so it is said, the four-leaf clover brings good luck and leads us to the elves...
In Germany and Scandinavia, it was believed that the rose in particular was under the protection of elves and dwarves. But other plants and even trees were also under their protection: in England and Ireland, hawthorn leaves were not picked as people feared the wrath of the elves. The plant was also called fairy thorn and it was known that the elves protected and loved these trees. Especially old solitary trees on boggy ground, a favoured area for elves, were avoided, as it was considered particularly dangerous to steal leaves from the plants here. At that time, it was also known that elves especially liked to dance around oak trees. In Denmark they say: Whoever stays under an elder tree on midsummer night will see the Elf King with all his entourage at midnight... In Germany, people talked about dwarves, small creatures that are closely connected to the trees.
In Devonshire, England, for example, the chickweed was left to bloom and not touched for fear of the elves' revenge. It is said that the delicate white flowers are under the protection of the fairy kingdom.
Poppies were also said to have magical properties. They are closely associated with sleep and forgetting. Elven magic is therefore also woven around these beautiful, delicate flowers, which often colour entire areas of land in an intense red.
If you are looking for elves, you will find them near flowers, herbs and trees.
In the old days, people were more careful with the gifts of nature. As a child, my mother often told me about my great-grandfather who, before the apple harvest, would stand in front of his beautiful big tree, take off his hat and bow before starting the harvest... In the old days, some fruit was deliberately left on the apple trees during the harvest to appease the elves and allow them their share. In those days, gifts were offered to the elves and people knew exactly what they loved. In Bavaria, for example, farmers would tie small baskets filled with strawberries between the cows' horns.
The fine fragrant herbs are also among the favourites of the elves - herbs provide healing, the right spice and aroma. In ancient times, herbs were sacred - they occupy a very special place in the realm of plants. Ancient legends and myths say that wild thyme and rosemary in particular are among the elves' favourite plants. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Mauro > 27-09-2025, 11:06 PM
(27-09-2025, 06:21 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Source and further reading T.F. Thiselton Dyer, Folk-lore of Plants, 1889. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It's generally not a good idea to quote books or papers written 100+ years ago: research has progressed a lot since then, and most of them only have an historical value nowadays. Google Scholar finds 15000 hits searching for "Celtic folklore plants" from 2000 onwards, so there are lots of newer, more reliable, texts to choose from. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Rafal > 28-09-2025, 11:32 AM
Quote:why the voynich ist celtic
No, it isn't
Voynich Manuscript is a medieval work showing Italian and German influences. Connecting it to Celtic folklore which comes mostly from British isles is a very long shot.
In the same way I could connect it to Slavic folklore, take some random text about rusalkas and fern flowers and add it to Voynich pictures.
Of course - Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Roman, Greek and so on share the same core as they are ultimately part of the big European culture. But I don't see in VM anything that would be exclusively Celtic and lets say not Germanic. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 28-09-2025, 08:13 PM
(28-09-2025, 11:32 AM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
Voynich Manuscript is a medieval work showing Italian and German influences. [..]
No, it doesn't
There are just some very few details which show motives with an "Italian" relation, the notorious "swallow-tails" in 3 or 4 spots of whole manuscript.
Such swallow-tails were built onto several fortress walls, but also at locations up to a line between Moscow and Trapezunt. (it is not from Moscow, those walls came later). But Trapezunt and Genuese harbors of Crimea had swallow-tails already during the 15th century.
And there is nothing nearly close of German(ic) origins in the complete VMS.
So where is any valid evidence for such influences?
Or otherwise: if you take a picture of the Chinese wall and put this photo into a book:
- are you Chinese then?
- is your book chinese?
- is the image chinese?
- are you influenced by China?
The only sure thing is that your camera is chinese, whatever you use.
We can discuss the extension and definition of "influence", but for VMS "being Italian and German influenced" there is not more proof than for Celtic, just the "consensus" of all Believers Of The Church Of Alpine Origin".
Not much, some hints to slavic/eastern european influences are even better than those more religious hallucinations. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Rafal > 28-09-2025, 08:47 PM
You are actually right that Italian influences, if we skip these merlons, aren't that strong.
German influnces are in my opinion much stronger, See for example these thread with personifications of weather seasons
which appear in some German manuscripts and ... Voynich manuscript:
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Personally I believe that VM was made in Germany but of course like others I am unable to definitely prove it. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Petrasti > 28-09-2025, 09:09 PM
(27-09-2025, 11:06 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It makes no difference how old a book in this case is. the text is intended only to link the connection between the plant spirits in the Voynich and well-known stories. The old belief or belief in nature was lived by our ancestors and was existence, tradition, healing, and faith. The older the book, the closer the memories of the old days are. For example: here in the Black Forest, in the year 2025 :-) (despite Christianization), we still say to this day, "If you see an elderberry, then take off your hat."(27-09-2025, 06:21 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Source and further reading T.F. Thiselton Dyer, Folk-lore of Plants, 1889. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It's generally not a good idea to quote books or papers written 100+ years ago: research has progressed a lot since then, and most of them only have an historical value nowadays. Google Scholar finds 15000 hits searching for "Celtic folklore plants" from 2000 onwards, so there are lots of newer, more reliable, texts to choose from.
(The saying "If you see an elderberry, then take off your hat" is an old folk wisdom based on the veneration and belief in the protective and healing power of the elderberry bush. It goes back to the mythological significance of the elderberry as the home of protective spirits and goddesses like Mother Holle, as well as to the recognition of its diverse healing properties. The gesture of taking off one's hat was meant to show respect and secure the tree's blessing.)
Many old farms have their own linden trees. The linden tree is the family's protective tree. (In Germanic times, the linden tree was a sacred tree and a place of gathering. It was believed to be the seat of good spirits.) On the Saturday after Ash Wednesday, a fire is lit on the mountain to drive away the winter spirits.
In England and Ireland, the Celtic faith was practiced longer and more intensely. The suppression of the traditions occurred not so long ago. The old belief remains much stronger and more pronounced there than in other parts of Europe. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
R. Sale > 28-09-2025, 09:25 PM
We don't know who created the VMs or where they came from. We don't know where the VMs was created. What we can sometimes discern from the illustrations are the influences and experiences that the VMs artist considered significant enough to represent in the manuscript and how that information has been manipulated.