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why the voynich ist celtic
- why the voynich ist celtic
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RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Petrasti > 28-09-2025, 10:24 PM
(28-09-2025, 11:32 AM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I don't rule out a German influence in general; there is much to be said for locating it in northern Italy or Switzerland, or possibly southern Germany. I think it's quite possible that the writers were also accustomed to writing in German. If you look at the words in the Voynich manuscript, many of them begin with a “k.” If it were an exclusively English or Irish work, we would probably find a “c” instead (but I am not an expert on this, it is just my personal opinion, but it would be interesting to explore). If I understand correctly, the attached link to slide f85r2 is the basis for the assumption of a German origin. Of course, these could be the seasons, why not, and of course the images could also be similar to images in German manuscripts. Whether the writers were German, Italian, or even Scottish, Irish or Valaisian cannot be explained by this. We speak more than one language today, too.Quote:why the voynich ist celtic
No, it isn't
Voynich Manuscript is a medieval work showing Italian and German influences. Connecting it to Celtic folklore which comes mostly from British isles is a very long shot.
In the same way I could connect it to Slavic folklore, take some random text about rusalkas and fern flowers and add it to Voynich pictures.
Of course - Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Roman, Greek and so on share the same core as they are ultimately part of the big European culture. But I don't see in VM anything that would be exclusively Celtic and lets say not Germanic.
The seasons also feature in pagan beliefs. They are particularly honored there. However, I read an article, which I unfortunately can no longer find, in which the woman in the south with the crook and the “rosary” was attributed to English manuscripts.
The rosary, which is atypical due to its three rings, was described in this image evaluation as “cloud bands,” which in turn were attributed to England. Is it not surprising that there is no reference to a known religion in the Voynich manuscript?
And yes, of course you can also attribute the images to Slavic folklore, if you then include and explain handfasting, the dark and light full moons, the offerings to the plant spirits that were practiced in Indo-European culture with honey and mead, the absence of any known religion,the naked women, the plant devas who hold the stars in their hands and find them reflected in the star section (or flowers) If you take a look at my thread with my proposed solution, you will find some more details that point to a Celtic origin. However, if you find any Slavic folklore or similar that solves the mystery, please let me know :-) -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Jorge_Stolfi > 28-09-2025, 10:32 PM
(28-09-2025, 09:25 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We don't know who created the VMs or where they came from. We don't know where the VMs was created. What we can sometimes discern from the illustrations are the influences and experiences that the VMs artist considered significant enough to represent in the manuscript and how that information has been manipulated.
I would say a bit more. We can be quite certain that the Scribe -- the person who actually put quill to parchment -- was "substantially European" and experienced with writing "European" documents on parchment, in some "European" language other than Voynichese, using Latin letters. That is, his/her experience was not (solely) writing in Greek, Armenian, Georgian, Cyrillic, Arabic, or Hebrew.
And it also seems safe to assume that he/she had some "European" herbal and astrological manuscripts available for "inspiration" when drawing the images.
On the other hand, there is evidence that the Scribe knew the Voynichese alphabet
but did not understand a single y of the text. So much so that he would write a parag that was supposed to be a single column with a plant in the middle as two columns, offset by one line...
All the best, --jorge -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
ReneZ > 29-09-2025, 12:07 AM
(28-09-2025, 08:13 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are just some very few details which show motives with an "Italian" relation, the notorious "swallow-tails" in 3 or 4 spots of whole manuscript.
(28-09-2025, 08:47 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are actually right that Italian influences, if we skip these merlons, aren't that strong.
"If we skip the 3 or 4 Italian influences that I am aware of, then there aren't any left"....
But there are many more, noted by people who deal with medieval manuscripts in a professional capacity. Not just tiny details in the drawings.
Let's see some of this:
(28-09-2025, 08:13 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.some hints to slavic/eastern european influences are even better
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RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 29-09-2025, 11:02 PM
(29-09-2025, 12:07 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But there are many more, noted by people who deal with medieval manuscripts in a professional capacity. Not just tiny details in the drawings.
[..]
Ok, let's see some of this first:
where are these "many more" influences, noted by those "capacities"?
- the plants: nothing anyhow Italic/Germanic-related in the plants' drawings.
- the roundels f 67 to f 70r: nothing anyhow Italic/Germanic-related in these drawings.
- the bathing scenes: nothing anyhow Italic/Germanic-related in these drawings.
- the "herbs", roots, "containers" etc.: nothing anyhow Italic/Germanic-related in these drawings.
- the plain text pages: ....
Just remaining: the "zodiacs", the map, some single sheets, the notorious f116 and some scribbles.
The plants are and cannot be related to any alpine vegetation until today; even though some interpretations of some VMS flowers gained much publicity and very little evidence at the same time.
None of the roundels of 67-70 come closer to anything but a "european-based" content; there is not any reliable connection to the region between Munich and Milano at all.
The bathing nymphs can hardly be recognized other than "european" appearances; but this results from a very steady colorization of nearly all visible hair as yellow/blonde or reddish -- but this hair colour used to be and is still very common in an area from Karelia south to Don river. Nothing exclusively Bavarian or North-Italian with this.
Also nothing Alpine with those roots, turnips and exotic bottles or whatever,
and it is no use to talk about the plain texts and Munich/Milano, or is it...?
"Italian influences" are only appearing in the "Map" by some swallow-tail walls, aren't they? And this type of walls existed during the VMS era also at least in Karystos, Trapezunt and some or all Genuese harbours of Crimea -- not-so-Bavarian-Italian locations.
The month's names in "zodiacs": added (much) later in completely deviating scribe, characters, language and quill tip. As well as the remarks of f 116.
A high percentage of discussions are about accuracy of details in VMS or better, the lack of it. Everybody who sees a special "detail" of his preference, must face the simple truth that the VMS artists may just did not mean this or did not care for a correct drawing or did not care at all and combined or left out the important things (aka the things they saw as important --which we just don't know today).
With such an idea of "influences" to the VMS from the core catholic center of Europe: why are there nearly none clear-christian symbols in the manuscript? There is just one cross drawn (and another one "added" by the "retracer"). Many other manuscripts are crowded with crosses, halos, finger symbols, holy abbreviations, signs, angels etc. VMS: nothing.
So, if you are able to provide some undoubtful, clearly recognizable, solid evidence for North&South-of-Alps influences, proven by medieval's experts, just name some here.
As far as I see it, many people wasted much time upon popular theories which based on wrong conclusions, speculations, imaginations, wishful thinking and bad guesswork.
What are those most obvious hints with Munich-Milano origins? Remind me of just a few of them. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
ReneZ > 30-09-2025, 01:14 AM
Let me start by pointing to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which is fully relevant for this discussion.
I have had personal discussions with several librarians and other old book experts, and they have invariably recognised an Italian 'nature' of the MS, or a German 'nature'.
Note that I (always) use the term Italian and German as denoting areas with respect to modern borders. I think that most people do that.
I will not quote private discussions here, but let me refer to some documented cases.
Sergio Toresella, well-known herbal expert, described his interpretation of the Voynich MS in or around 1995, as 'very close to the alchemical herbals'. These herbals are from Northern Italy. He compared the handwriting to Italian humanist writing. The short conclusion is that everything told him: Italian. Some (not all) of this is documented here: Toresella, Sergio: Gli erbari degli alchmisti, in: L. Saginati, Arte farmaceutica e piante medicinali; erbari, vasi, strumenti e testi dalle raccolte liguri, 1995.
Alain Touwaide, another well-known herbal expert, sees a close relation between the Voynich MS illustrations and the 'Tractatus de Herbis, most of all MS Sloane 4016. These manuscripts are also from Northern Italy.
His publication (more coming): Touwaide, Alain: Il Manoscritto piu Misterioso - l'Erbario Voynich, in: Villa Mondragone "Seconda Roma", a cura di Marina Formica, Palomba Editori, 2015, pp. 141-158.
An English summary (but beware of hacked links): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Now Toresella and Touwaide do not necessarily agree on everything... as is probably even typical for top experts in any area, but they do agree on the basics.
Less compelling, but still largely agreed is that many of the symbols used in the writing can be found in Italian ciphers of the time frame of the MS.
I am still hopeful to see these:
Quote:some hints to slavic/eastern european influences are even better
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RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Petrasti > 03-10-2025, 06:05 PM
Here are a few more inspirations on how the cosmos was viewed in connection with plants on earth in ancient times. There is a treatise "Sterne und Sternbilder" ("Stars and Constellations") in ancient and modern times by Dr Wilhelm Gundel (1922)
In ancient Persia, it was believed that the seeds of water, air, earth and plants were contained in the stars. In Australian myths, magicians fetch the flowers from the sky. In ancient Greece, it was believed that the seeds of all living things once fell from heaven to earth. The Pythagoreans believed that demons and souls flooded to earth in the sun's dust. The interpretations of the stars are ‘elastic’ if the sky is seen as a fertile realm on which plants and flowers thrive as on earth. Thus it is said in Walloon folklore that the moon sleeps during the day, but walks in a garden full of flowers at night. In a Transylvanian folk tale, the bull always ran away as soon as the boy was asleep, came to the great meadow in the sky and ate golden starflowers. This comparison can also be found in old Greek and Roman plant names, e.g. aster, the ‘Stella’ and in our star flowers, and it also harbours the belief that the earthly flowers and the heavenly stars are identical.
Many myths tell the story of how flowers came to earth. In a friendly chat, little Jesus tells little Johannes that he has many, many shining flowers that adorn the sky, but that people have called them stars. He gave him a brightly shining seed, Johannes planted the seed and told the other children, overjoyed, that he had sown a star in his garden. And in the fall, beautiful plants sprouted from the seed, bearing flowers like stars, and the children jubilantly called them asters or star flowers. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Aga Tentakulus > 04-10-2025, 07:04 AM
What's that about?
You write examples about Persia, then about Australia and Siebenbürgen.
How is that supposed to explain anything, and what does it have to do with the Celts?
In the Middle Ages, nothing was known about the Celts; all of this knowledge comes from modern times.
I live in Celtic territory. Take graves, for example. You can't tell whether graves are from 400 BC and Celtic or 700 AD (early Middle Ages Alemannic). You have to open them.
Our church was built in the 500s. Both were still there then, the Celts and the Alemanni, and also the Romans. The transition was gradual. 400-500. -
RE: why the voynich ist celtic
Petrasti > 04-10-2025, 11:41 PM
I'm not talking about a chronological sequence here. When I write Celtic, I don't mean the time of the Celts and Romans, but the Celtic language that is still spoken today and was also present in Switzerland and southern Germany in the Middle Ages through the Iro-Scots and travelling monks from the island. The examples merely show how long the belief in plants in the context of the stars has existed and how this belief was equally distributed across the whole world and language/belief areas.