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Possible match on f49r Snakes

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• Possible match on f49r Snakes

• Possible match on f49r Snakes

  Kendiyas > 19-08-2025, 10:40 PM

  Hey everyone, I am not sure if this has been talked before but I couldn’t find a previous thread about this.
  
  As you know there are two snake/leech figures in the roots of the plant on f49r 
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  By now we all seem to agree that the figures used in the manuscript is very likely to be copied from other manuscripts of the time and has been changed slightly. There are beautiful threads about this such as the findings of Koen and many others. Anyways; I have stumbled upon the Harley MS 4986 an anonymous botanical manuscript. The manuscript is believed to be written in the second half of 12th century.
  
  In the f43 v(Harley MS 4986) there are 3 snakes on the root of a plant. The left looking snake in particular has a similarity of the general shape and mouth type. Also the circular dotted patterns on the snakes are very similar. The  line that come out of the rightmost snake on Voynich You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is also looking similar to the snakes on the Harley MS 4986 it almost seems like the scribe was going for an open mouthed snake but changed it after. 
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  I have searched for the manuscript online to search for more similarities in the figures but couldn’t find a copy so I have contacted the british library and unfortunately I have gotten this response.
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  The library did invite me to check the manuscript in person though which is an amazing response but I live in Turkey and won’t be traveling to UK for some time.
  
  Anyways, what do you think about the similarities I am seeing? Do you concur or do you disagree? I wanted to share!

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  nablator > 20-08-2025, 08:30 AM

  Good find!
  
  Harley MS 4986 was You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for its animal-shaped roots.
  
  Too bad it's not visible anymore in the BL viewer.
  
  f. 20v:
  
  
  f. 21v:
  
  
  f. 43v:
  

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  Kendiyas > 20-08-2025, 10:28 AM

  (20-08-2025, 08:30 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Good find!
  
  Harley MS 4986 was You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for its animal-shaped roots.
  
  Too bad it's not visible anymore in the BL viewer.

  
  Thanks nablator! I did see that the manuscript was mentioned before on the forum but couldn’t find the snake similarity in any discussion.
  
  Yes it is really sad that the ms is not available at the time. I would’ve loved to check the drawings in it’s entirety. I wonder if anyone has a digital pdf laying around in their computer.

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  ReneZ > 20-08-2025, 10:45 AM

  I temporarily put a zip file here:
  
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  It should be complete but  I am not 100% sure

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  Kendiyas > 20-08-2025, 10:59 AM

  (20-08-2025, 10:45 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I temporarily put a zip file here:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  It should be complete but  I am not 100% sure

  
  Rene to the rescue! That is amazing thanks a lot Rene
  
  Edit: It is not complete but better than nothing! I think the ms has 81 folios Rene’s upload ends in f44. I think that is where the botanical ends and beastiery begins that explains it.

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  MarcoP > 20-08-2025, 11:16 AM

  So it's herba Basilisca, f43r/v in Harley 4986.
  This is the same plant in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
     
  
  EDIT: transcription and translation of the text in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Shirley Kinney (p.358).
  
  

  Quote:This herb basilisca grows in those places where the basilisk snake lives; there is not just one type of this snake, but there are three: the first is the olocrisus, the second is the stellatus and has a golden head, the third kind is the sanguineus, it is like vermillion and has a golden head. This herb basilisca easily possesses all these kinds of basilisks. If anyone has the plant with them, he will control all of these snakes, and they will not be able to kill him with their evil gaze. Whatever the olocrisus, which is also called criseus, sees, it breathes upon and sets on fire. Whatever the stellatus, which is also called crisocefalus asterites, sees, it withers and kills. Whatever the third type, which is called ematites and crisocefalus, sees or bites disappears and only its bones remain. This herb possesses power against all the violence of those snakes. If someone has it with them, they will be protected from every kind of snake. ...

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  ReneZ > 20-08-2025, 11:34 AM

  Snakes (and dragons) are quite common in old herbals. 
  This older herbal MS is a good You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  It is fitting that the Voynich MS has one of each.
  
  This, again, shows that the creator of the MS had significantly more than a superficial knowledge of ancient herbals.

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  Kendiyas > 20-08-2025, 12:04 PM

  Cotton MS Vitellius C III (9th-late 11th century) has the basilisca.  The plants leaves and flowers are strikingly similar to the Harley MS4986
  Cotton MS Vitellius CIII f 57 r.
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  The manuscript is claimed to be a copy of a 4th century Herbal which is claimed to be from Augustus’ physician;
  
  

  Quote:“ff. 20r-74v: an illustrated Herbal, comprising the De Herba Vettonica liber attributed to Emperor Augustus' physician Antonius Musa (Pseudo-Antonius Musa), the Herbarius of Pseudo-Apuleius, Pseudo-Dioscorides's Liber medicinae ex herbis feminis,and Curae herbarum, all translated into Old English. Paintings of various plants, scorpions, and snakes”

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  Koen G > 20-08-2025, 12:41 PM

  This is one of the big questions for me: what kind of environment were the makers operating in to have access to or knowledge of a series of "health related" works. Possibly several kinds of illustrated herbals, maybe a Balneis, something astrological, some popular health books... So you're either looking at a place of learning or a professional copying workshop.

• RE: Possible match on f49r Snakes

  quimqu > 20-08-2025, 01:57 PM

  (20-08-2025, 12:41 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So you're either looking at a place of learning or a professional copying workshop.

  
  Under my opinion, the first option suits better. You can learn a lot, but be "bad" at drawing. As said by several experts, the quality of the drawings is not that good. So I suspect the author (or authors) had quite a lot of knowledge but were not very good in arts...
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