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• RE: L. Rauwolf

  kckluge > 11-10-2025, 01:13 AM

  (10-10-2025, 11:51 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is absolutely correct. It is just not very convenient to add "if he was indeed the seller" every time his name is mentioned....

  
  Sure, every time, but maybe just once at the start...:-)
  
  Speaking of "If indeed he was the seller..." (and maybe this should be a new thread), should that lead to a reconsideration of possible influence of the Voynich Mss. on the Rosicrucian manifestos given Widemann's involvement in the circle of folks that produced/disseminated them?

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  ReneZ > 11-10-2025, 07:35 AM

  IIRC, this was also one of Nick Pelling's thoughts after the 2012 Mondragone event, when Wideman was first mentioned. He spent some time after that looking at various Rosicrucian aspects, but I did not really follow that up. My feeling is that Widemann was more of a follower than a leader, but I may be wrong in that.

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  N._N. > 11-10-2025, 08:14 AM

  (11-10-2025, 01:13 AM)kckluge Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (10-10-2025, 11:51 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is absolutely correct. It is just not very convenient to add "if he was indeed the seller" every time his name is mentioned....

  
  Sure, every time, but maybe just once at the start...:-)

  
  This is indeed what I meant to do in the first post of the thread, maybe this was not explicit enough:
  

  Quote:The core question I started asking myself regarding the manuscript's history from Widemann to Kircher (which I will treat as a given here, since there is little point in discussing several aspects at once)

  
  I certainly could have elaborated on the likelihood of the whole premise, but to what end? Discussing Rauwolf only really makes sense if you either discard the Widemann research by René and S. Guzy completely (and offer an alternative theory on Rauwolf's involvement) or try to connect with at least the general gist of it. Since I think the Widemann research is sound in its approach and clearly the most convincing attempt to work on the manuscript from the archival angle, I went with the latter here.
  
  It seems to me like research into the Rosicrucians is a bit on hold since Carlos Gilly's works on them have been announced for years if I am not mistaken, meaning everything one could do in that direction might be outdated as soon as they are published.

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  DG97EEB > 17-01-2026, 09:06 PM

  I've been reading through the correspondence on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and reading both Rauwolf and Widemann correspondence, I'm coming to the conclusion that Widemann simply inherited (by accident or legally unknown) Rauwolf's library. Widemann spends most of the time complaining about how poor he is and then all of a sudden he's sending letters to kings around Europe and discussing secret books. In the letter to James 1st, he talks about collecting books for 30 years. If you work back from the date of the letter, it suspiciously falls on the time at which he came to live in Rauwolf's house. Controversial maybe, but my view is he was a chancer who knew of Rauwolf's association with Rudolph, and after his death corresponded with him and others to offer them manuscript from his collection. Occo, Camerius, Bauthin, all talk about going to see Rauwolf's collection... Widemann had also studied at Padua, so would have been familiar with the materials.

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  DG97EEB > 17-01-2026, 09:17 PM

  Pulling it together from the different sources...
  
  
  | Date | Event | Source |
  |------|-------|--------|
  | **1560-63** | Rauwolf studies at Montpellier, collects plants in S. France & N. Italy | Walter et al. 2021 |
  | **1573-75** | Rauwolf travels Near East, compiles herbaria | — |
  | **1582** | Rauwolf writes to Rudolf II (printing privilege request) | aerztebriefe.de / Guzy 2022 |
  | **1583** | Occo visits Rauwolf's house, views botanical manuscripts | aerztebriefe.de (Trew) |
  | **1584** | Rauwolf seeks princely buyer due to financial difficulties | Walter et al. 2021 |
  | **1584** | Rauwolf → Clusius: "Help me sell my herbarium to a prince" | aerztebriefe.de |
  | **1588** | Rauwolf leaves Augsburg; Widemann succeeds as city physician, moves into house | aerztebriefe.de |
  | **1593** | Herbarium sold to Rudolf via Reichardt Strein von Schwarzenau - 310 Reichstaler | Walter et al. 2021 |
  | **1593 Aug** | Payment still pending per Hans Popp | Walter et al. 2021 |
  | **1596 Sept** | Rauwolf dies (Hungary) | — |
  | **1597** | Rauwolf's widow dies; estate sold | Guzy 2023 |
  | **1597** | Widemann sells "Kunstbuch" to Rudolf - 100 fl. | Guzy 2022 |
  | **1599** | Widemann sells "barrel of rare books" - **600 fl.** | Guzy 2022 |
  | **1600** | Widemann sells three "Kunstbücher" - 60 fl. | Guzy 2022 |
  | **1609** | Widemann → Duke Maximilian (Bavaria) | Guzy 2022 |
  | **1614** | Widemann → Christian IV (Denmark): "secret writings" | aerztebriefe.de |
  | **1619** | Widemann → James I (England): "manuscripts collected **over 30 years**" | aerztebriefe.de |
  | **1621** | Widemann → Duke August (Brunswick): Paracelsus, Kabbalistic works | aerztebriefe.de |
  | **1624** | Widemann → James I again: demands payment for 1619 shipment | aerztebriefe.de |
  | **1624** | Widemann → Philip IV (Spain) | Guzy 2022 |
  | **1628/32** | Widemann → Sigismund III (Poland) | Guzy 2022 |
  | **1634** | Widemann → Christina (Sweden) | Guzy 2022 |
  | **1637 Oct** | Widemann dies | aerztebriefe.de |
  
  **Two tracks to Rudolf:**
  1. **Direct (1593):** Rauwolf → Rudolf (herbarium, 310 Reichstaler)
  2. **Via Widemann (1597-1600):** Rauwolf estate → Widemann → Rudolf (books, 760 fl. total)
  
  Yes, I used Claude to bring this table together, but only after spending 3 hours reading papers and the Aretzebrief website...

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  DG97EEB > 18-01-2026, 09:44 PM

  Looking for more information on Widemann, I've found his master catalogue 
  
  
  Sylva scientiarum et artium laudabilium. Thesaurus inaestimabilis
  Location: Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Bibliothek (formerly Niedersächsische Landesbibliothek), Hannover
  Shelfmark: Ms. iv 341
  Extent: Folios 1–864
  
  Emiritus Professor Carlos Gilly has referenced it extensively, but it doesn't look like anyone has looked at it for Voynich. It doesn't look like Guzy pursued it  Anyone on here checked it out? I've emailed the library, but if anyone is near Hannover...

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  ReneZ > 18-01-2026, 10:40 PM

  Yes, the link was posted here a while ago.
  
  I have tried to find out repeatedly if Gilly's long promised publication of Widemann's catalogues finally appeared at some point, but found no evidence that it did.
  
  I've written to Gilly, but never got a response. This is not unusual when the question includes the words 'Voynich MS' ;-)
  
  A very long autograph MS by Wideman is preserved in Hannover. Stefan Guzy and I had it digitised. This is relatively hard to read, and I have barely gone through it. Not sure how far Stefan got, but it is theoretically possible that it mentions something of relevance to the MS he sold to Rudolf, and how he got it (even though this book was written much later).

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  DG97EEB > 18-01-2026, 11:48 PM

  (18-01-2026, 10:40 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, the link was posted here a while ago.
  
  I have tried to find out repeatedly if Gilly's long promised publication of Widemann's catalogues finally appeared at some point, but found no evidence that it did.
  
  I've written to Gilly, but never got a response. This is not unusual when the question includes the words 'Voynich MS' ;-)
  
  A very long autograph MS by Wideman is preserved in Hannover. Stefan Guzy and I had it digitised. This is relatively hard to read, and I have barely gone through it. Not sure how far Stefan got, but it is theoretically possible that it mentions something of relevance to the MS he sold to Rudolf, and how he got it (even though this book was written much later).

  
  Thanks Rene. That's very useful. Would you be able to share the digitised version,  or are there copyright issues? It may be that with modern OCR we can extract something of value from ir

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  nablator > 19-01-2026, 01:11 AM

  (18-01-2026, 11:48 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It may be that with modern OCR we can extract something of value from ir

  
  Good luck... it's hard to read indeed.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  or
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: L. Rauwolf

  ReneZ > 19-01-2026, 01:13 AM

  It's 1100 pages, but what I can do is send you a good sample via WeTransfer or similar, to see what goes.
  If you want to give it a try, just send me a PM.
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