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[Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

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[Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.
[Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

Diane > 20-10-2018, 06:54 AM

It is usual to find, in any formal study, a keen discussion of methodology and principles. HOW does one go about investigating an idea's validity? What sort of factual basis is required to justify the formation of a 'theory' and what is the difference between a passing notion, an 'idea', a self-referential fiction and so on.

We see none of that sort of discussion in the study today - and as a rule any effort to raise questions about methodology or current practice sees a ton-weight of censure-bricks descend on one's head, because it is impossible to discuss where we've gone wrong, or where we are going well, without footnotes and accurately-attributed examples.

Anyway, on the theme of absent, flawed, careless or long-outmoded methods in creating theories about history and the transmission of objects and ideas, I recently mentioned 'Entanglements' and their schematic representation.

Since there are now quite a number of other Voynich authors who have followed the pioneers into the area of eastern Greek culture, medieval Constantinople and the wider Byzantine sphere, and some who argue that the manuscript passed from this or that region to another at thus-and-thus a time in history, may I introduce you to the style of Entanglement diagrams in that context.

The following paper is available through Research Gate and contains a large number of illustrative graphs and diagrams as well as impeccably researched text. Fully footnoted and with earlier observations and conclusions CORRECTLY attributed to their sources, allowing you to test the value of those sources, as well as testing the later author's integrity. This sort of testing is a routine part of academic method and it would be odd indeed if scholars were censured for such method - or indeed for criticism of others' methodology.

See,

Johannes Preiser-Kapeller, 'Calculating the Synod? New Quantitative and Qualitative Approaches for the Analysis of the Patriarchate and the Synod of Constantinople in the 14thC', Paper presented at the 22nd International Congress of Byzantine Studies: Proceedings of the Round Table "Le Patriarcat Oecuménique de Constantinople et Byzance « hors frontières »" published January 2014.
RE: [Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

-JKP- > 20-10-2018, 08:04 AM

Diane wrote: "Since there are now quite a number of other Voynich authors who have followed the pioneers into the area of eastern Greek culture, medieval Constantinople and the wider Byzantine sphere, and some who argue that the manuscript passed from this or that region to another at thus-and-thus a time in history, may I introduce you to the style of Entanglement diagrams in that context."

This is a big assumption. Some Voynich authors and researchers are not following the pioneers at all. They aren't even reading the pioneers (which isn't necessarily a bad thing since many of the pioneers were wrong, Voynichese is NOT a form of Greek microwriting shorthand). Some of the researchers have followed trails into areas based on their research interests and on following up clues that took them independently into these places, not because they copied YOU. You always word things in a way that insults their intelligence and diminishes their research skills.

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It's impossible to follow the history of herbal manuscripts without ending up at least part of the time in Greece, since Dioscorides is one of the major exemplars for medieval herbal manuscripts that were brought back during the Crusades and those that were created a couple of centuries later in Lombardy and copied throughout Europe.

The study of classical Greece was all the rage in the late 14th and 15th century. There was quite big revival of teaching the Greek language in the 15th century so scholars could read the original manuscripts and those that had been extensively copied in Europe in the Middle Ages. Medieval manuscripts are suffused with classical literature, science, and medicine, so it stands to reason that there might be some echo of this is the VMS as well, regardless of whether someone from outside Europe was involved.

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You keep referring to people outside the Voynich community who have degrees as though they are somehow always right and somehow "better" than people within the Voynich community, many of whom ALSO have multiple degrees (and many of whom have excellent research skills even if they don't have degrees).

Why can't you present the information about other research and researchers without running down those who are working so hard to solve this puzzler?
RE: [Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

Ruby Novacna > 20-10-2018, 10:38 PM

To solve the Voynich manuscript enigma, several skills are needed: a lifetime commitment of amateur researchers and the experience of scientific publication in case the results, even partial, could be published.

Diane claims to know the tricks of the trade, so much the better, she could propose herself as a re-reader for the possible publications.
And others searchers can start learning to read diagonally, without stopping in the overly demanding tone of Diane (or other perfectionist).

In this way, I hope, the little squabble will end and the whole team will come out winning.

*By the way, I don't have found any article on behalf of Diane O'Donovan with Google, it's a nickname?
RE: [Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

-JKP- > 20-10-2018, 10:45 PM

(20-10-2018, 10:38 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To solve the Voynich manuscript enigma, several skills are needed: a lifetime commitment of amateur researchers and the experience of scientific publication

And others searchers can start learning to read diagonally, without stopping in the overly demanding tone of Diane (or other perfectionist).

In this way, I hope, the little squabble will end and the whole team will come out winning.

I am not concerned about demanding tones. There's nothing wrong with setting high standards. I am not bothered by perfectionism.

The problem is that Diane has a habit of running down her fellow researchers in almost every post, and it is not necessary to do so.
RE: [Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

Diane > 22-10-2018, 09:37 AM

Ruby and JKP

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the subject of this post: which is not me, but an academic technique for mapping inter- and extra-regional connections.

Moderators: I note that as so often before JKP has responded inappropriately to a thread or comment of mine. Since I do not believe that academic censorship or 'quashings' aid any study in the longer term, I will ask the moderators neither to delete his ad.hominem remarks, nor 'brand' him in the eyes of other members. What I would ask is that you keep track of just how regularly JKP responds in such a way.

for example:

Quote:You keep referring to people outside the Voynich community who have degrees as though they are somehow always right and somehow "better" than people within the Voynich community, many of whom ALSO have multiple degrees (and many of whom have excellent research skills even if they don't have degrees).

This sort of comment can be predicted to create very negative impressions in the minds of readers. Note that JKP has not troubled to ask what I think, or whether I do, or don't, think this-or-that. There's no room for conversation or discussion: it's just a sort of verbal bashing, really.
RE: [Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

-JKP- > 22-10-2018, 11:45 AM

(20-10-2018, 06:54 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We see none of that sort of discussion in the study today - and as a rule any effort to raise questions about methodology or current practice sees a ton-weight of censure-bricks descend on one's head, because it is impossible to discuss where we've gone wrong, or where we are going well, without footnotes and accurately-attributed examples.

...

This is verbal bashing and denigrating to Voynich researchers. And it is Post #1, so I didn't start it.

I think serious Voynich researchers do give careful thought to methodology and do think about where we might have gone wrong, and do correct their ideas and their methods. I have great respect for the work of other researchers and see no reason for you to constantly put them down.

And you are the one who didn't accurately attribute examples when you claimed repeatedly that you did the first map analysis of the rosettes folio. You failed to attribute the earlier analysis and yet you point the finger at us.

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Links to articles about methodology are welcome. Telling us we are deficient is flaming.
RE: [Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

VViews > 22-10-2018, 03:07 PM

(20-10-2018, 06:54 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We see none of that sort of discussion in the study today - and as a rule any effort to raise questions about methodology or current practice sees a ton-weight of censure-bricks descend on one's head, because it is impossible to discuss where we've gone wrong, or where we are going well, without footnotes and accurately-attributed examples.

Anyway, on the theme of absent, flawed, careless or long-outmoded methods in creating theories about history and the transmission of objects and ideas...

Hmmm... It has barely been a week since you posted your "public apology to forum members" for denigrating other Voynich researchers and their work, and I see you're back at it already.

As a reminder:

"Diane, ....why you feel the need to disparage other researchers and their ethics in the process? It really adds nothing to the research you have done or to its presentation, on the contrary."--- VViews, 11/10/16
"Diane, please stop adding accusations to every single post... "By the way" accusations without evidence will no longer be tolerated on the forum. " --- KoenGh, 7/7/17
"Oh good lord, not this again." --- davidjackson 28/12/17
RE: [Essentials] Theory and Practice - questions of method.

davidjackson > 22-10-2018, 03:52 PM

Alright, thread locked.
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