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• Month names collection / metastudy

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  DG97EEB > 17-02-2026, 07:11 PM

  (17-02-2026, 05:45 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I finally got around to adding this one. Another Octembre and some good other names for the northern part of France.

  
  Another silly question.. doesn't the evidence from the spreadsheet suggest langue d'oil rather than langue d'oc?

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  nablator > 17-02-2026, 07:27 PM

  (17-02-2026, 07:11 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another silly question.. doesn't the evidence from the spreadsheet suggest langue d'oil rather than langue d'oc?

  
  Langue d'oc (from Dante's "lingua d'oco") is old occitan/provençal, the language of southern France.
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  It's close: it doesn't have octembre, but it has abril (not aberil).
  
  A calendar, 14th century: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Janvyer, Febrier, Mars, Abril, May, Junh, Juli, Aost, Septembre, Ochoyre, Novembre, Desembre
  
  Dictionnaire d'ancien occitan auvergnat:
  
  abril, abrial, abriel (april, aprial)
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  mai (may)
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  junh, jun (jung)
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  octobre (auctobre) + may, jung, jullet, aost, septembre, octobre, novembre, decembre (1404)
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  aust, auost
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• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  Koen G > 17-02-2026, 08:22 PM

  (17-02-2026, 07:11 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another silly question.. doesn't the evidence from the spreadsheet suggest langue d'oil rather than langue d'oc?

  
  Certainly - but I have always thought the whole Occitan angle was misguided.
  
  What I see is: northern French influences for some months, Germanic influences for others. So you're looking at one of several areas where these influences coexist.

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  davidma > 17-02-2026, 10:38 PM

  I have a new bunch, lots of octembre, zero aberils, which has proven to be the hardest to find, at least for me. I must have gone through at least 200 manuscripts on IIIF. Sorry for the spam, if anyone has got any ideas where to move from here I am all ears. I think astrological manuscripts could be another good source, I have been relying mainly on liturgical calendars so far.
  
  1. Tournai, 1300s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Mars, Apuril, [May missing], Juin, Jullet, Auoust, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  2. Bourges, 1375, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Mars, Auril, May, Iuing, Iuignet, Aoust, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  3. This one is very interesting, it is a Provencal astrology manual/almanac, written in the second half of the 1400s, and is the only occurrence of octembre in an Occitan dialect I have found. 
  Montpellier, after 1453, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Martz, Abrill, May, Iun, Iull, Aost, Setembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  4. East France, first half of 1300s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Mars, Auri, Mai, Jung, Julet, Aous, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  5. France, 1300s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. This one has cool zodiac sign drawings to boot.
  
  Mars, Auril, May, Jung, Jullet, Aoust, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  6. Arras, 1400s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March, Auril, May, Juing, Juinet, Aoust, Setembre, Octembre, Nouembre, De[ce]mbre
  
  7. Arras, 1400s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March, Apuril, May, [June missing], Iullet, Aoust, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  8. Tournai, 1400s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March, Apuril, May, Juing, Jullet, Aoust, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  9. Arras, 1400s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Marts, Apuril, May, Juing, Jullet, Aoust, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  10. Metz, 1457, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Mars, Auri, May, Jung, Jungnet, Auost, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  11. Amiens, 1440s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Mars, Auril, May, Juing, Juillet, Aoust, Septembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre
  
  
  I have looked at other sources like germanic dialects, dutch dialetcs, occitan, and none work as good as northern-eastern french as shown above.
  Germanic dialects use the older germanic forms for month names (june, july, september till december), and so do dutch dialects. Occitan has octembre only in Provençal, and has very different forms for June and July. 
  I think we are dealing in the VM with a more vernacular form of the language, which could explain the different spellings. One of the areas I have not really been able to investigate is french-speaking Switzerland, and Waldesians in Northern Italy, as well as Provençal. This is mainly due to the small number of manuscripts surviving in those dialects, and the low availability of manuscripts with month names in those dialects.

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  Koen G > 17-02-2026, 11:08 PM

  Thanks, David! I will add these later. If you like, you can request editing rights through drive, so you can add them right away yourself?
  
  I wanted to see the third one, but it looks like you added the wrong link there...

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  davidma > 17-02-2026, 11:11 PM

  (17-02-2026, 11:08 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks, David! I will add these later. If you like, you can request editing rights through drive, so you can add them right away yourself?
  
  I wanted to see the third one, but it looks like you added the wrong link there...

  
  Great, I'll request access. Edited link now.

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  ReneZ > 18-02-2026, 01:26 AM

  (17-02-2026, 10:38 PM)davidma Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.3. This one is very interesting, it is a Provencal astrology manual/almanac, written in the second half of the 1400s, and is the only occurrence of octembre in an Occitan dialect I have found. 
  Montpellier, after 1453, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Martz, Abrill, May, Iun, Iull, Aost, Setembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre

  
  I see this in the part: 2. (ff. 54-73) Astronomical tables and canons (Provençal) / Levi ben ...
  I would have read dece[m]b[r...] as dese[m]b[r...] .
  Or is that really a c?

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  Koen G > 18-02-2026, 10:42 AM

  (18-02-2026, 01:26 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I see this in the part: 2. (ff. 54-73) Astronomical tables and canons (Provençal) / Levi ben ...
  I would have read dece[m]b[r...] as dese[m]b[r...] .
  Or is that really a c?

  
  That's definitely a long-s.

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  davidma > 18-02-2026, 10:51 AM

  (18-02-2026, 01:26 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (17-02-2026, 10:38 PM)davidma Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.3. This one is very interesting, it is a Provencal astrology manual/almanac, written in the second half of the 1400s, and is the only occurrence of octembre in an Occitan dialect I have found. 
  Montpellier, after 1453, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Martz, Abrill, May, Iun, Iull, Aost, Setembre, Octembre, Nouembre, Decembre

  
  I see this in the part: 2. (ff. 54-73) Astronomical tables and canons (Provençal) / Levi ben ...
  I would have read dece[m]b[r...] as dese[m]b[r...] .
  Or is that really a c?

  
  I wasn't really sure, on a second look it is definitely not a c so it has to be s right? Anyway at this point I am pretty sure the month names are not in Occitan/Provençal/Catalan

• RE: Month names collection / metastudy

  Koen G > 18-02-2026, 10:53 AM

  You should have access to the file now, David.
  
  Regarding the color codes, I'm just kind of improvising there, but trying to be consistent. If something I've been doing there feels off, feel free to point it out.
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