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The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
- The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
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RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Oscroft > 14-07-2026, 03:22 PM
(14-07-2026, 03:02 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Without learning the meanings of the characters, copying them (or buying a printed copy of the book) would be pointless
I've no idea if my anecdotal story is of any use, but when I married my Thai wife 40 years ago she helped me with my spoken and written Thai (and she still reminds me I'm not very good). One thing she noted was that in my early attempts my writing looked like school attempts - especially with copied round forms rather than confident native strokes. Might there be a contrast between experienced and inexperienced Voynich scribes Here? -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Grove > 14-07-2026, 03:30 PM
I’m curious if anyone has found a historical document where a foreign explorer didn’t use their own script when first learning the language of the indigenous locals. I think every instance from North America, the Latin alphabet was used. This is where a lot of borrowed words in North America come from and quite a number of place names. -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Jorge_Stolfi > 14-07-2026, 03:36 PM
(14-07-2026, 02:42 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.because the simplified reform was incomplete.
I can relate to that. Portuguese spelling underwent a reform in the 1940s, which changed it from the second-worst of European scripts to... the second-worst of European scripts.
But that was not the fault of the reformers; it was the traditionalists who held them back and forced them to keep their cherished nonsense like the letter "ç" and the "qu" and the four different sounds of "x". Spanish had a reform in recent times too, but they were bolder and got a much better result.
Quote:asking people to volunteer to learn to read again
And that is why spelling reforms hardly ever happen under fully democratic regimes. Reform is supposed to make life easier for children and the semi-literate; but the decision to do it rests on the educated adults, for whom the reform has a huge cost and no benefit. There is no chance that English spelling, for example, will be reformed any time soon...
In fact, in many cultures, the ability to spell correctly is a social badge that identifies one as member of the "elite". A spelling reform would cancel that badge, instantly lowering all literate adults below the level of fourth-graders.
An authoritarian regime does not need to kill people to impose a reform. Maybe not even to fire them. It just have to make resistance to the reform bad for one's career etc.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Jorge_Stolfi > 14-07-2026, 04:06 PM
(14-07-2026, 03:30 PM)Grove Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I’m curious if anyone has found a historical document where a foreign explorer didn’t use their own script when first learning the language of the indigenous locals. I think every instance from North America, the Latin alphabet was used. This is where a lot of borrowed words in North America come from and quite a number of place names.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. syllabaries are example of a non-Latin-based script for a foreign language that was developed recently (mid 1800s) by European missionaries.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was developed locally in what is now Liberia, but it seems to have followed attempts by American or European missionaries to adapt the Cree/Inukitut syllabaries to the local languages.
Going back some time, there are the examples of Greek-literate priests or monks developing the Cyrillic, Glagolitic, Armenian, and Georgian scripts for the speakers of those languages. While Cyrillic shows clear influence from the Greek alphabet, that is not the case of the last two.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.t formerly used in Somalia was invented by a prince who was literate in Arabic.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Grove > 14-07-2026, 04:14 PM
Didn’t they generally begin with a Latin version first? Also, the purpose was to create a written text where there was none for the native speakers, not specifically for the foreigner’s understanding. -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Jorge_Stolfi > 14-07-2026, 04:59 PM
(14-07-2026, 04:14 PM)Grove Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Didn’t they generally begin with a Latin version first?
Maybe the VMS Author did so too...
Quote:Also, the purpose was to create a written text where there was none for the native speakers, not specifically for the foreigner’s understanding.
For private use, rather than for the locals or for "people back home" (like the Jesuits who needed to report to Rome so that others could be trained), a foreigner would need to develop a script for the local language only for situations like the proposed scenario: namely, to record a text dictated by a native speaker, or record a speech or lecture for later study. A script based on the Latin alphabet would be too slow for those purposes. That is why shorthand systems, for any language, do not use Latin letters.
In fact, the Author would need something closer to a shorthand than to IPA. Which is probably what Voynichese will turn out to be.
For other private situations, like writing a diary or recording any information that he understood, that hypothetical foreigner would surely use his native script and language.
There may have been many cases of foreigners inventing phonetic scripts for the private dictation/lecture uses above. But those systems would almost certainly be lost by the time their creators sailed off for the last time. The Chinese Origin Theory says that Voynichese survived only because the Author, back in Europe, arranged for a clean copy of his notes to be made on vellum, with all those boobs intriguing illustrations.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Mauro > 14-07-2026, 08:16 PM
(14-07-2026, 04:06 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(14-07-2026, 03:30 PM)Grove Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I’m curious if anyone has found a historical document where a foreign explorer didn’t use their own script when first learning the language of the indigenous locals. I think every instance from North America, the Latin alphabet was used. This is where a lot of borrowed words in North America come from and quite a number of place names.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. syllabaries are example of a non-Latin-based script for a foreign language that was developed recently (mid 1800s) by European missionaries.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was developed locally in what is now Liberia, but it seems to have followed attempts by American or European missionaries to adapt the Cree/Inukitut syllabaries to the local languages.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.t formerly used in Somalia was invented by a prince who was literate in Arabic.
All the best, --stolfi
All these scripts are little relevant, having been created after 1800 to the late 1900, when phonetics and phonology were well understood, mature sciences. They are not surprising, while an ex-novo phonetic script in medieval times is.
(14-07-2026, 04:06 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Going back some time, there are the examples of Greek-literate priests or monks developing the Cyrillic, Glagolitic, Armenian, and Georgian scripts for the speakers of those languages. While Cyrillic shows clear influence from the Greek alphabet, that is not the case of the last two.
These are much more pertinent. However, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was invented by local speakers, Bulgarians in this case (who, being literate, also knew Greek and Glagolitic, I surmise). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was invented by Armenian speakers. The origin of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is unknown, so it cannot be used to argue one way or the other. It's possible the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was invented by foreign missionaries, but we actually don't know it, the attribution to Saints Cyril and Methodius is just 'traditional', and in any case it was a modification of the Greek alphabet, not a fully ex-novo script.
So it's quite exceptional, to say the least, that someone in pre-modern times decides to invent a novel phonetic script to transcribe a foreign language. The VMS being a phonetic transcription of 'Chinese sensu lato' would be exceptional: possible of course, but not probable.
Another, unrelated thing I find hard to accept is that someone can spend enough time in 'China sensu lato' to learn the spoken language and then fail to learn to write even one Chinese character. I'm pretty much sure that learning the Chinese writing is a daunting task, but where's the problem in learning some dozens characters? Spend a couple years in China and you're bound to learn some, how could that not happen? So why no Chinese characters at all in the whole manuscript (the wiggles on the first page could be anything and they surely do not cry 'Chinese')? This too is possible, but weird, that is to say, improbable. -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
ololololo > 14-07-2026, 08:44 PM
(14-07-2026, 08:16 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another, unrelated thing I find hard to accept is that someone can spend enough time in 'China sensu lato' to learn the spoken language and then fail to learn to write even one Chinese character.
Spoken - meaning that the author knew how to communicate in this language, but did not know how to write in it.
Perhaps the Chinese "friend" dictated so quickly that it was easier for the author to write sticks and loops than complex characters
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RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
Jorge_Stolfi > 14-07-2026, 11:05 PM
(14-07-2026, 08:16 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All these scripts are little relevant, having been created after 1800 to the late 1900, when phonetics and phonology were well understood, mature sciences. They are not surprising, while an ex-novo phonetic script in medieval times is.
One does not need advanced knowledge of phonetics and phonology to create a phonetic script. It is enough to realize that a spoken language consists of discrete bits of sound belonging to a small set of phonemes ("sound types") -- and the meaning is conveyed by the sequence of those phonemes, regardless of the speaker's voice pitch scale, timing, speed, loudness, regional and personal accent, etc.
The Egyptians figured out that fact around 3200 BCE and created the first known alphabet with 24 consonant signs (although they made limited use of it) . The Babylonians, Phoenicians, Maya, and many other people also invented phonetic scripts in antiquity. Anyone who could read and write in any phonetic alphabet (like the Latin one) would instinctively know that fact.
Many Europeans would be familiar with the Greek alphabet, besides the Latin one. Cryptographers would often invent new scripts. Some hoaxers like Kelley did the same. Someone who reached "China" (East or Southeast Asia, or maybe Tibet) would have seen many other scripts. On the other hand, while in "China" he would have very little opportunity to use the Latin script. The point is that, when he decided to create a script to record the dictated Chinese books -- a script capable of recording the peculiar sounds and tones -- he wold not have necessarily chosen the Latin alphabet as the basis.
Quote:However, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was invented by local speakers, Bulgarians in this case (who, being literate, also knew Greek and Glagolitic, I surmise). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was invented by Armenian speakers. The origin of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. [and Glagolitic] is unknown
But while the inventors may have been speakers of the local languages, their written language was Greek. Yet when they had to develop a script for their language, they invented all or most of the letters, instead of trying to use the Greek alphabet.
Quote:Another, unrelated thing I find hard to accept is that someone can spend enough time in 'China sensu lato' to learn the spoken language and then fail to learn to write even one Chinese character. I'm pretty much sure that learning the Chinese writing is a daunting task, but where's the problem in learning some dozens characters? Spend a couple years in China and you're bound to learn some, how could that not happen?
He may have learned some, but what good would that do? I myself learned maybe 100 Chinese characters by the time I was 30 or so. Like big, small, fire, water, person, man, woman, tree, city, stone, left, right, soldier, exit, mouth, new, river, mountain, ... But still I could not read anything significant, not even a metro ticket, a store hours sign, a fast food menu... And moreover most of what one would consider words in Chinese are two-syllable compounds, like 电话 = "electricity"+"speech" = "telephone". Even if you learn the general meaning of the individual characters, you still would not know most compounds.
Quote:So why no Chinese characters at all in the whole manuscript
Why should there be?
While the Author probably invented the script primarily for his own use use, the fact that the VMS is on vellum, with lots of illustrations and blank spaces, indicates that he expected others to read it -- even if only his heir, or a scholar friend.
The Author's invented phonetic script would have been a big hurdle before that goal, but at least the would-be reader could learn how to pronounce the words, and maybe find someone else who understood the language.
A translation would have been much better, of course; but even modern Chinese scholars struggle to understand very old classics like the SBJ; so we can bet that, while the Author could read his notes aloud, he may have understood only 5% of that -- and, unless he was a doctor himself, would probably not know the Latin medical terms for the few conditions that he managed to understand.
On the other hand, using a few Chinese characters here and there, for basic terms like "water" or "woman", would not have helped the reader at all. If anything, the opposite.
Quote:the wiggles on the first page could be anything and they surely do not cry 'Chinese'
But You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., so that the spine is on the right side (like Chinese books are bound), then...
Those glyphs do not look like Voynichese; they would stand out even among the "weirdos". Can you think of a better explanation for them?
(That old page of mine says that the top character, rotated, cannot be 大 ("big", "great") because the joined legs do not extend above the line. But I just found out that in the so called "Clerical" style, which is vaguely analogous in function to our Fraktur or Old English style, the 大 character is indeed written just like that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. weirdo, with no "head" sticking out at the top.)
By the way, the top character, turned upside down, also looks exactly like the Voynichese rare (probably non-phonetic) glyph "picnic table" x. I wonder...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
rikforto > 14-07-2026, 11:29 PM
I'm not sure what exemplars you're looking at, but in the ones I see it definitely looks like 撇 (the down left stroke) crosses 横 (the horizontal one) to me.
ETA: It might have a separate stroke up top sometimes
No dictionary I've checked wants to go to bat for three strokes in the order implied by what's in the VMS, and I certainly don't recall seeing a character like that. Now, I'm at a disadvantage here because if he's botched the strokes or order I'm going to have trouble reading it because I've been trained out of the shape instincts he would have been working with, but its also simple enough I can scarcely imagine how else to render it