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An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
- An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
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RE: An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
dashstofsk > 01-06-2025, 08:32 AM
(01-06-2025, 07:13 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.and searches for words sharing the same root, the most common results are ‘X-iin’ or ‘X-in’
It follows because m and r favour coming after o or a , and iin and in almost always come after a . The same is true also for words ending in al . The final character can be replaced with iin and in to make words that are frequent.
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RE: An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
dashstofsk > 01-06-2025, 08:53 AM
(01-06-2025, 07:13 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.EVA_Q13
qokam 5 : qokain 162 , qokal 104 , qokaiin 87
dam 4 : daiin 76 , dar 57 , dal 51
am 3 : aiin 24 , ar 15 , al 14
ram 3 : raiin 12 , rain 8 , ral 7
lom 3 : lol 17 , lor 10 , lo 5
Also I cannot see much of an abbreviation here. If you were to count how many strokes of the pen have been saved then it would seem not to be much. If the authors really were into abbreviating then there would be more evidence of it throughout the manuscript. Especially in the long text sections of q13 and q20 where the authors had the ordeal of having to write so much. -
RE: An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
MarcoP > 01-06-2025, 09:52 AM
It’s probably worth remembering that the goal of abbreviation isn’t necessarily speeding up the writing process by reducing the number of strokes: it could simply be shortening words so that more text could fit in a limited space. This sometimes caused abbreviations to cluster near the end of lines.
For instance, the end-of-line abbreviated “formam” in Vat.Lat.410 originated from rotating the final ‘m’ by 90 degrees (though here the shape has evolved into something looking like 3), so that vertical space is used instead of horizontal space. The difference in horizontal space is minimal, but it was enough for this scribe to prefer the abbreviated form at the end of lines.
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RE: An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
nablator > 01-06-2025, 10:12 AM
(01-06-2025, 07:13 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.is similar to the downward stroke turning the Latin letter ‘r’ into an abbreviation for ‘ris’.
But after the loop the downward stroke most often goes toward the right: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The arc ending g and m is more similar to the truncation mostly found after d in -dum abbreviations: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
dashstofsk > 01-06-2025, 02:29 PM
(01-06-2025, 09:52 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it could simply be shortening words
The problem then is that for language B m will usually only be an abbreviation for in, iin . Your own lists EVA_Q13 and EVA_Q20 show that these are the only replacements that shorten.
EVA_Q13
qokam 5 : qokain 162 , qokal 104 , qokaiin 87
dam 4 : daiin 76 , dar 57 , dal 51
am 3 : aiin 24 , ar 15 , al 14
ram 3 : raiin 12 , rain 8 , ral 7
lom 3 : lol 17 , lor 10 , lo 5
EVA_Q20
am 18 : aiin 122 , ar 111 , al 84
otam 16 : otaiin 77 , otain 52 , otar 50
qokam 12 : qokaiin 118 , qokain 100 , qokal 39
okam 8 : okaiin 97 , okain 67 , okal 38
dam 8 : daiin 110 , dain 42 , dar 34
And if you list all m words in Herbal A1 you will see that many of the words don't appear short. Also what are you make of the fact that m sometimes appears as its own word?
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RE: An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
MarcoP > 01-06-2025, 06:24 PM
I think we are at a point where we really need the quality measure mentioned by Rafal. At the moment I cannot think of any simple qualitative way of determining if replacing 'm' is making the grammars better or worse. A quantitative measure could probably help. -
RE: An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
oshfdk > 03-06-2025, 01:09 PM
(01-06-2025, 06:24 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think we are at a point where we really need the quality measure mentioned by Rafal. At the moment I cannot think of any simple qualitative way of determining if replacing 'm' is making the grammars better or worse. A quantitative measure could probably help.
As far as I remember, Mauro presented a universal scoring function for grammars a while ago. It was based on the total size of the grammar and the text itself as expressed using the grammar. I'm not sure if it applies here or not, maybe Mauro can comment. -
RE: An attempt at extracting grammar from vord order statistics.
davidd > 03-06-2025, 01:20 PM
(03-06-2025, 01:09 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(01-06-2025, 06:24 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think we are at a point where we really need the quality measure mentioned by Rafal. At the moment I cannot think of any simple qualitative way of determining if replacing 'm' is making the grammars better or worse. A quantitative measure could probably help.
As far as I remember, Mauro presented a universal scoring function for grammars a while ago. It was based on the total size of the grammar and the text itself as expressed using the grammar. I'm not sure if it applies here or not, maybe Mauro can comment.
I did an attempt of a score function,
its bad news. It looks like voynich is more like random than like genesis.
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I am not happy yet about the score function, and I still havent started using the cleaned version of the transliteration file, but it doesnt look promising.