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VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
- VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
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RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
quimqu > 29-09-2025, 07:39 AM
(28-09-2025, 10:40 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.None of the other rainbow iconography fits the little rainbow on f75r
I’m sorry, but I don’t share your opinion; to me it’s not a rainbow, but rather a depiction of a sort of channel; it looks like a bridge or aqueduct carrying water or some liquid toward the river where the nymphs are bathing. -
RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
Barbrey > 29-09-2025, 08:32 AM
(29-09-2025, 07:39 AM)quimqu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-09-2025, 10:40 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.None of the other rainbow iconography fits the little rainbow on f75r
I’m sorry, but I don’t share your opinion; to me it’s not a rainbow, but rather a depiction of a sort of channel; it looks like a bridge or aqueduct carrying water or some liquid toward the river where the nymphs are bathing.
That’s fine, it’s one of the worst things about the VMS that the drawings are sometimes difficult to identify just as real things, let alone symbols. I base my opinion upon the other rainbows in this section, however, which are drawn the same way. I guess it could be argued that none of them are rainbows either? It would be nice if the colourist had painted more than one or two colours though. -
RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
Jorge_Stolfi > 29-09-2025, 10:18 AM
(29-09-2025, 08:32 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That’s fine, it’s one of the worst things about the VMS that the drawings are sometimes difficult to identify just as real things, let alone symbols. I base my opinion upon the other rainbows in this section, however, which are drawn the same way. I guess it could be argued that none of them are rainbows either? It would be nice if the colourist had painted more than one or two colours though.
It cannot be stressed enough that, almost certainly, the colors in the VMS are not original. They were applied centuries after the manuscript was scribed, by someone who had no understanding of the text or the figures -- even less than we do, did not care about accuracy, and had only 3-4 color paints in his/her/its palette, not including white, black, red, or yellow. Thus, when trying to interpret the figures, one must ignore the colors and try to imagine what the page would have looked like without them.
And one must also ignore later additions to the outlines themselves. Like the crowns of f72v1 and the "barrels" on f73v...
One form of Tibetan art was a portrait of a deity complete with all details, from horse to weapons and rings and earrings, minus the deity itself. As a meditation exercise, Tibetan monks were supposed to stare at the painting until they could "see" the deity filling in the void. Interpreting VMS images is like that exercise, but in reverse...
All the best, --jorge -
RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
Barbrey > 29-09-2025, 05:27 PM
(29-09-2025, 10:18 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(29-09-2025, 08:32 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That’s fine, it’s one of the worst things about the VMS that the drawings are sometimes difficult to identify just as real things, let alone symbols. I base my opinion upon the other rainbows in this section, however, which are drawn the same way. I guess it could be argued that none of them are rainbows either? It would be nice if the colourist had painted more than one or two colours though.
It cannot be stressed enough that, almost certainly, the colors in the VMS are not original. They were applied centuries after the manuscript was scribed, by someone who had no understanding of the text or the figures -- even less than we do, did not care about accuracy, and had only 3-4 color paints in his/her/its palette, not including white, black, red, or yellow. Thus, when trying to interpret the figures, one must ignore the colors and try to imagine what the page would have looked like without them.
And one must also ignore later additions to the outlines themselves. Like the crowns of f72v1 and the "barrels" on f73v...
One form of Tibetan art was a portrait of a deity complete with all details, from horse to weapons and rings and earrings, minus the deity itself. As a meditation exercise, Tibetan monks were supposed to stare at the painting until they could "see" the deity filling in the void. Interpreting VMS images is like that exercise, but in reverse...
All the best, --jorge
Yes the colours and some of those additions you mention are certainly pitfalls in any interpretation. I don’t think you need colours in the VMS to identify rainbows though, the concentric arches are enough for me.
Pseudo-Dionysus (5th to 6th century Christian philosopher) described something very similar to the Tibetan meditation. It’s called apophatic (or negative) theology and you see it in Western European art but even more so in Eastern European or Byzantine art. The idea is that God is ultimately unknowable and can’t be limited by labels even when those labels are positive such as good, great, etc. What you get, then, is “traces”or “signs” of God or Jesus’s presence (such as spikes in a log!) but not God or Jesus themselves. You also get lots of blank spaces that the viewer can only populate through contemplation.
The mandorla is a particularly good example of apophatic theology use, an almond-shaped framing device, usually filled by God, Jesus or Mary. There are many blank mandorlas, though, that must be filled in by your imagination with these figures in contemplation of these negative spaces.
I suspect that the top left rosette,roughly mandorla shaped and ringed by moons signifying life everlasting but containing only a blank space inside is the VMS illustrator’s attempt at apophatic theology. -
RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
R. Sale > 29-09-2025, 08:17 PM
@Barbrey
A day late and a dollar short regarding Oresme. BNF Fr. 565 was produced in Paris c. 1410, several decades after his death. So, the illustration has less to do with him than it does with the artist(s) that produced it. This is confirmed by the cosmic illustrations in Harley 334, produced in Paris 1425-1450. There are strong similarities between these two examples, and no useful comparison with earlier illustrations in texts by de Metz. The original investigation posted by E. Velinska is no longer available.
Comparison with the interior of the VMs cosmos based on this atypical cosmic structure implies some sort of connection or relationship. -
RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
Barbrey > 29-09-2025, 08:41 PM
(29-09-2025, 08:17 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Barbrey
A day late and a dollar short regarding Oresme. BNF Fr. 565 was produced in Paris c. 1410, several decades after his death. So, the illustration has less to do with him than it does with the artist(s) that produced it. This is confirmed by the cosmic illustrations in Harley 334, produced in Paris 1425-1450. There are strong similarities between these two examples, and no useful comparison with earlier illustrations in texts by de Metz. The original investigation posted by E. Velinska is no longer available.
Comparison with the interior of the VMs cosmos based on uthis atypical cosmic structure implies some sort of connection or relationship.
Yes, that’s the example I was referring to, but didn’t know the illustrations that appear to relate to the VMS came so long after his death, so thank you. -
RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
Ruby Novacna > 30-09-2025, 06:56 AM
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RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
R. Sale > 01-10-2025, 07:47 PM
Some interesting commentary, thanks. However, even with "Voynich Velinska cosmos" I did not see her original post regarding inverted T-O representation of Earth along with the relevant illustrations from the two historical Parisian sources. It is the visual examination of these atypical cosmic representations that reveals the significant similarities and differences with the VMs version. The similarities are structural, including the 43 undulations of the cosmic boundary. The differences are visual, as if the artist intentionally code shifted pictorial representations into vords.
It's sort of along the lines of a "Can't judge a book by its cover." kind of theme. The VMs artist maintains the structure but does as much as possible to maximize the visual differences. It's still the same thing, but it looks entirely different. The obfuscation of historical information is repeated and can be presumed to be intentional. When we know the history and have the relevant examples, as here, then we can see a part of what he VMs artist has done. -
RE: VMs f75r - Nymph Holding Spurtle
Barbrey > 01-10-2025, 08:38 PM
(01-10-2025, 07:47 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some interesting commentary, thanks. However, even with "Voynich Velinska cosmos" I did not see her original post regarding inverted T-O representation of Earth along with the relevant illustrations from the two historical Parisian sources. It is the visual examination of these atypical cosmic representations that reveals the significant similarities and differences with the VMs version. The similarities are structural, including the 43 undulations of the cosmic boundary. The differences are visual, as if the artist intentionally code shifted pictorial representations into vords.
It's sort of along the lines of a "Can't judge a book by its cover." kind of theme. The VMs artist maintains the structure but does as much as possible to maximize the visual differences. It's still the same thing, but it looks entirely different. The obfuscation of historical information is repeated and can be presumed to be intentional. When we know the history and have the relevant examples, as here, then we can see a part of what he VMs artist has done.
Yes, and I would love a more meta examination of what sources could have been the origin, and how the illustrator has deviated to make their own points. But I suppose that is wishful thinking with no one able to agree on anything because we have so few clues to context.
