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Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

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• Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

• Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  VoyBear > 22-03-2025, 04:45 PM

  Were the archives of Collegium romanum (the last pre-voynich owner as I understand) ever queried for more voynichese related documents? What if the manuscript is just a book explaining voynichese grammar and all the illustrations are just allegories for its intricacies lol. 

  But seriously, if someone made such a good job at making sure that nobody unqualified will understand something they wanted to share, would they really do so within the location of one community ? Im assuming that when there is no need for the information to travel long distances, there is also less motivation for security of the transfer. If the six or more scribes who wrote the VM all lived in one place at one time, and they all knew the same info they put into the book, would they really be motivated to do so with such a centuries-of-attempts-defying level of security, if the information wasnt meant to travel through space and time ? If the members of the community which wrote the manuscript really all lived in place at one time, wouldnt it be much easier for them to simply hide their valuable information and only access it during initiation of new members since the current ones already knew well what they themselves wrote and could afterall explain verbally ? 

  But it was more or less proved that the manuscript was intended for repeated use. Given that the book is small (not sure on this but werent medieval books usually larger than VM ?), fitting perfectly even into womans hands and also that it is probable it had a wood cover, the more likely it seems fit for traveling. If the information that the book contains was meant to be shared locally, they probably wouldnt need to spend such an effort to assemble the folios into a book when they could simply keep it as scrolls which are cheaper and easier to hide. 

  Also, it just doesnt seem likely to me that a community of 6 or more people would write this book at one time and place, if each one of them knew all the info that the book contains. There are cases of savant polymaths, but those people are rare. Usually, one is expert at one subject at a time, be it botany, astrology, balneology, pharmacy or literature. If all the scribes or non-scribing members of the community lived in one place, they could simply teach each other their respective craft without the need for making a secure and scalable means of transporting the data throughout the times and locations of other members. This would mean that the manuscript traveled across places of residency of each of the experts who kept adding to and possibly copying the current data. 

  Another thing is that no christian church, or any other medieval authority tried to destroy the manuscript, given that it often reached higher levels of society, it seems that nobody has ever considered the manuscript dangerous or heretical. If there was no danger in writing about bathing ladies, plants and stars, then why encipher it ? There could be many reasons, but the one which works in this scenario, is that the authors were actually embarassed sharing the information in the manuscript. Either because they were men who wrote about naked ladies performing health rituals (which was probably too gay even for a time when men wore tight yoga pants), or they were the naked ladies themselves. 

  Thats why I think the VM could have traveled between nunneries where each expert nun added her piece of research in a possibly different dialect or language (latin for speakers of other than the biggest languages back then whose speakers wrote in their native language), which would explain why we see variations of text structure between individual entries, with seemingly the same type of encoding which rearranges the symbols in some sort or which only serves as a reference to a key text (we all know that substitution cipher is out of the play by now). 
  
  That brings me to another possible clue, the bible. Did anyone ever tried finding correlations between VM and the bible ? All nuns had it or had access to it, it contains enough words to assemble a language out of and alot of the nuns probably had the bible memorized so well that they didnt have much trouble decoding the text. So what if its the key text ?
  
  Finally, if the VM manuscript really traveled between places, accumulating knowledge, I think its more likely than not that there were more books like this. We just havent found them yet. 
  
  Thanks to everyone willing to talk about this and or correct me about stuff.

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  dashstofsk > 22-03-2025, 09:23 PM

  (22-03-2025, 04:45 PM)VoyBear Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think its more likely than not that there were more books

  
  
  I think we can safely assume that the alphabet is an invented one, and that the Manuscript is the only one that uses it. Any similar manuscript at any time in its history would have aroused the same curiosity, with each owner in turn being equally puzzled by it. News of such another rare and remarkable manuscript would have spread and it would have already come to light.

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  oshfdk > 22-03-2025, 10:28 PM

  (22-03-2025, 09:23 PM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think we can safely assume that the alphabet is an invented one, and that the Manuscript is the only one that uses it. Any similar manuscript at any time in its history would have aroused the same curiosity, with each owner in turn being equally puzzled by it. News of such another rare and remarkable manuscript would have spread and it would have already come to light.

  
  I'm not familiar with the world of medieval manuscripts, but I think the fame of the Voynich MS is somewhat accidental.
  
  As far as I understand, the manuscript was virtually unknown between ~1680 and 1912 for over 200 years, sitting in various libraries and archives. If Wilfrid Voynich didn't put some extra effort into making the manuscript known to the public, with bold claims that could rewrite the history of science, I think it would have likely remained a little known curiosity in some private library.
  
  If some other manuscript showing Voynichese turned up in the past 20-30 years, I guess it's probable its value would have been recognized, because VMS is quite a celebrity with documentaries, news articles and publications about it. But 50 or more years ago, I think people would have just filed it under "unknown cipher MS" and forgotten about it. Especially, if it's not a big illustrated MS, but a few pages, like those that have been cut out of the very Voynich MS. I'm not sure these have been destroyed or otherwise lost, I think it's quite possible they are still sitting in some folder or envelope that hasn't been opened for the past 50 or more years.

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  ReneZ > 23-03-2025, 12:32 AM

  (22-03-2025, 04:45 PM)VoyBear Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Were the archives of Collegium romanum (the last pre-voynich owner as I understand) ever queried for more voynichese related documents?

  
  Yes.
  
  However, the only document that could possibly still be around somewhere are the notes of Barschius which Marci sent to Kircher together with the Voynich MS.
  Most probably, these no longer survive. While they would not help us to translate the text, Barschius may have known more about where the MS came from.
  
  Nowadays, such a document, and any other that has some visual relationship with the Voynich MS, would be quickly recognised, simply due to the fame of the MS.

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  VoyBear > 23-03-2025, 08:42 AM

  (23-03-2025, 12:32 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (22-03-2025, 04:45 PM)VoyBear Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Were the archives of Collegium romanum (the last pre-voynich owner as I understand) ever queried for more voynichese related documents?

  
  Yes.
  
  However, the only document that could possibly still be around somewhere are the notes of Barschius which Marci sent to Kircher together with the Voynich MS.
  Most probably, these no longer survive. While they would not help us to translate the text, Barschius may have known more about where the MS came from.
  
  Nowadays, such a document, and any other that has some visual relationship with the Voynich MS, would be quickly recognised, simply due to the fame of the MS.

  I see. Thx.
  
  Maybe we could have some luck in the Vatican archives, if someone ever manages to get some data out of there.

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  dashstofsk > 23-03-2025, 10:10 AM

  (23-03-2025, 08:42 AM)VoyBear Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Vatican archives

  
  
  It is a myth that the Vatican has a huge collection of secret manuscripts that it wants to keep hidden. Over the years the Vatican has put a lot of effort into cataloguing, indexing, microfilming, digitising the manuscripts of its archive and into their preservation. The Vatican Library is accessible to qualified scholars.

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  Mark Knowles > 23-03-2025, 10:45 AM

  (23-03-2025, 10:10 AM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (23-03-2025, 08:42 AM)VoyBear Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Vatican archives

  
  
  It is a myth that the Vatican has a huge collection of secret manuscripts that it wants to keep hidden. Over the years the Vatican has put a lot of effort into cataloguing, indexing, microfilming, digitising the manuscripts of its archive and into their preservation. The Vatican Library is accessible to qualified scholars.

  
  Whilst what you say about the Vatican Library appears to be true, the Vatican Apostolic Archives don't seem to be well catalogued or digitised based on my experience.

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  ReneZ > 23-03-2025, 11:18 AM

  The collections in the Vatican are enormous. Indeed, the most recent knowledge of the whereabouts of the Voynich MS when Wilfrid acquired it derive from archival material in the Vatican, that was studied only two or so years ago. 
  
  Certainly, not all of its material is accessible even to researchers, for example when it has not yet been properly organised. That is also the case for material related to the Jesuit library that held the Voynich MS and we need to wait. (The source for this information is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
  
  For the Voynich MS, anything related to its earlier history will not be in the Vatican. The MS has travelled a lot and its origins are not certain

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  Mark Knowles > 23-03-2025, 11:46 AM

  (23-03-2025, 11:18 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For the Voynich MS, anything related to its earlier history will not be in the Vatican.

  
  How can you be confident of that then?

• RE: Could there be more documents written in voynichese ?

  ReneZ > 23-03-2025, 11:58 AM

  To be precise, this cannot be completely excluded, but I am indeed confident that it is correct.
  
  This is based on many years of study. It cannot be explained in the frame of a forum post.
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