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• A Cipher Thought Experiment

  trajan117 > 21-03-2025, 02:37 AM

  Hi, folks.
  I just created an account here, so I don't know if anyone has done something similar to this before (also, let me know if this is the appropriate place to put this post). I just did a little experiment to create a cipher with only 13 glyphs and restrictive positional variation. I intend this as a fun exercise to see what kind of cipher I would come up with given these restrictions. I am including the cipher text in this post with no indication of how the cipher works, the language it is written in, or what the text itself says. I will tell you what languages I know: English (naturally), Latin, Ancient Greek, and Ancient Egyptian. Apologies if there are any errors. I tried my best to make it as clean as possible. Note that | indicates a line break. It isn't intended as a glyph. The glyphs used are G, K, L, M, N, O, P, R, S, T, /, +, and 4.
  
  GTMOLRR/O MTNO/S NO/S LO TMO/ST OMP 4TO 4POLO/SNOLPNOLRNO/TGS OMP 4TNO/S KOLTMO NO KLONR LOR/RMOLOTGS SMOO GT/OGK MTNO/S KRMOLO/TMO/S SOMRO | NPMO/RGS LR/OGR GK/ORLT/S NO LOMR ONRLRGS LT/ONOGR MTNO/S MP/OR MPGONR 4O GT/OPMO GS/OGO TRMOLO/T MTNO/S LO/S MPGONR+ | 4OMP GS/OGO 4TLONPMO LOR/RMOLOTGS LPMOONR LOPRMO TO KRLO/KK MTNO/S KOLTMO MTONR NO LOMR LO MP/OOLR KOMR/PLO/RMOLT TO MTO | KLRMONPMO/R SKRNOLPMO GKT/O GK/ROTMO MTO NP/OGSNRO/TMS MRLONRGO/SKRNO/PT MTLO/T GK/OGOLRTNR/T SGO/RPRNO/SMO 4RO | MTO/RMO LO/RMO SMRLO/RT PMO/OPLRMO GTMO/RMO
  
  I will come back with the solution in a few days if no one solves it. I won't indicate if someone is on the right track. But if someone is able to crack it, I'll respond. I hope someone solves it!

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  nablator > 21-03-2025, 10:11 AM

  Hi trajan117,
  
  Welcome to the forum.
  
  It's very useful to try ciphers out and see how the ciphertext compares to Voynichese.
  
  But solving it without knowing anything about it, from a short sample of ciphertext only, is difficult. A much longer sample would help.

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  oshfdk > 21-03-2025, 10:18 AM

  (21-03-2025, 02:37 AM)trajan117 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I just created an account here, so I don't know if anyone has done something similar to this before

  
  Hi and welcome!
  
  As far as I remember, this has been done quite a few times. Personally, I'm not sure this is a useful exercise. It's quite easy to create a cipher that would be quite hard to break, especially given a very short sample.
  
  If you have some specific idea that you want to prove or refute with this experiment, I'd be happy to discuss it.

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  Rafal > 21-03-2025, 12:51 PM

  I agree with others. Breaking an unknown cipher in unknown language (which could be ancient Egyptian than nobody knows) and dealing with unknown subject is hard.
  
  People were often able to break military and diplomatic ciphers only because they knew the context and expected some words to appear there. French Great Cipher was broken because the man who solved it correctly guessed les ennemis ("the enemies") phrase. Nazi ciphers were often broken because they contained repetitive things like "wetter" (weather) or "Heil Hitler" and so on.
  
  Breaking a single instance of a more advanced cipher is hard. Breaking the Zodiac cipher took over 60 years and it was broken only by brute force and a bit of luck.
  
  But I'm happy to learn how your cipher works.

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  RobGea > 21-03-2025, 01:01 PM

  (21-03-2025, 12:51 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Breaking an unknown cipher in unknown language ... is hard.

  
  You're not wrong, it totally kills your intuition.
  Anyway, this cipher looks fun..

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  Koen G > 21-03-2025, 01:26 PM

  Would I be correct in assuming that it is verbose in some way? The cipher text being longer than the plaintext?

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  trajan117 > 21-03-2025, 01:49 PM

  (21-03-2025, 10:11 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi trajan117,
  
  Welcome to the forum.
  
  It's very useful to try ciphers out and see how the ciphertext compares to Voynichese.
  
  But solving it without knowing anything about it, from a short sample of ciphertext only, is difficult. A much longer sample would help.

  
  Thanks for the input. Yeah, I might include some "clues" later. I would just like to see a pet theory of mine falsified. I would consider it falsified if someone is able to crack it without clues. Simply put, if someone can crack it, I know my idea can't be right. Since Ancient Egyptian is a no-go for most people on this forum, I will say right now that it isn't written in Ancient Egyptian. I wouldn't consider that much of a clue.
  
  Noting what other people have said, I'll include more text in the cipher and a picture as aid later today.

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  nablator > 21-03-2025, 02:10 PM

  (21-03-2025, 02:37 AM)trajan117 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.restrictive positional variation

  
  Nothing is strictly or even strongly word-initial (except 4) or word-final (except +) so I don't see what is restricted in positional variation.

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  trajan117 > 21-03-2025, 06:02 PM

  Hi folks,
  
  Thanks for the feedback! I have worked on some more encrypted text in the same cipher to give more reference. I hadn't before because encrypting text by hand takes time and, honestly, I wouldn't have been surprised if someone was able to easily manage to crack the code. I know the VM is a popular thing for codebreakers to take a crack at. Also, I feel like I should have been more clear with my intent here: this cipher isn't one-to-one what I think the Voynich cipher (assuming it is a cipher) is. If I went into more detail into that, I feel like I would give clues to how it works. That is also why I'm not responding to any questions or comments on the nature of the code right now (even though I really want to). I am using this as an experiment to see if this cipher and the Voynich cipher* use a similar method or approach. I am presenting it this way because I suspect that my suspicion is incorrect and I want to see how enjoyable it is to crack my cipher so I can give it to a friend who likes to break ciphers. In many ways, it would bring me more joy if someone was able to crack it.
  
  With that said, here is some more text, accompanied by a pertinent image:
  
  
  MTO KLRO/SSNO/KLOR ORLTMO/RS OMP KOLRGOMRNR/S LO/RMO SO MT/ORNO/K NO/ONRO/K LONRLT KORNORMTNOLONR MTO MT/ORNO/K ORLTMO/R MTO 4RLO/S+|KGOLRNORMO ORLTMO/R NO/S MTO 4R/OST SNOMR/PLRMO 4TO KOLRGOMRNR/S LO/RMO MTNO/KK LONRLT STOGO/T GKNOMT SNOMR/PLRMO LTMO/KO+|RLO/TNO/ONR KGOLR/TGO/RLORRGS NO/T NO/S LO/SSOSNOLO/TMOLT GKNOMT MRLONORLRONRLT 4K/RMOO/SMO LONRLT MRLOLKNRLO+ | 4K/RLOMOSNOLO MO/SPMOMSNOLORRGS MTGO/RNOGR MTO LO/RKGTLONO/K LONRLT KLRO/SSNO/KLOR PMO/RNO/OLT/S MTO NO/ONRO/K ORLTMO/R MTO 4PORNORORMO ORLTMO/R NO/S MR/ORMO ORNRLO/TMO 4TO KOLRGOMRNR/S LO/RMO SLRMONRLTMO/R LONRLT 4TMOLRNO/KLO/TMO GKNOMT KGTLO/RLO/KTMO/RNO/STNO/K SKROLRR/S | KLORRMOLT NP/OLRGO/TMO/S LTMO/KORLO/TNOGR MTO KLO/PNO/TLOR/S KGOLR/TGO/RLORRGS NO/T NO/S LO/SSOSNOLO/TMOLT GKNOMT NO/ONROLO | PROLPOPRGS MTGOMO TO NO/TS CLR/OSMO TNOMO/S GKNOMT MP/OMONROMSNOLO GKTNO/TMS GO/SMOLT LO SNOMRNOLRO/R MP/ORMR OMP KOLRGOMRNR MTO KORNORMTNOLONR ORLTMO/R NO/S | MTO 4R/OST ORNRLO/TMO 4TO KOLRGOMRNR/S TMONRLT TO LPMO SLRMONRLTMO/R LRNO/KMO LONR NO/ONRO/K KOLRGOMRNR GT/OGKMONPMO/R NO/T MPMOLO/TGO/RMO/S LO LRONPOMSLRGS KLO/RNPMOLT KLO/PNO/TLOR LTMO/KORLO/TMOLT GKNOMT LO/KLONRMTGO/S LRMOLONPMO/S KGOLR/TGO/RLORRGS NO/T NO/S LO/S+|SOSNOLO/TMOLT GKNOMT 4TO GTMOLRRMONRO/STNO/K LONRLT ROMRLONR PMO/RNO/OLT/S LPMONOGR MTO 4R/OST RMO/SMONR/TLRGS NORPMONR/TMOLT ORLTMO/R | MTO NRGOMRLPMO/R OMP MO/KSLOMR/PLRMO/S PRNO/OR TO MTO GTMOLRRMONRO/STNO/K PMO/RNO/OLT NO/S MO/KSTRMOLRGS LRNOMRNO/TMOLT
  
  MTO NOMRLONSMO LOP/ONPMO NO/S LO MTO PLO/RMTONR/ONR LO TMO/PLRMO LTMOLTNO/KLO/TMOLT TO LOMTONRLO NOR LOMTONR/S NO/T NO/S LPGONOLR/T OMP PMONR/TMOLRNO/K MRLO/RLP/LMO GKNOMT NO/RONR LONRLT GK/OOLTMONR 4S/ONOR/TS NO/T NO/S LO GTSLP/RNOLT TMOR/PLRMO GO/SNOGR LP/OMT 4TO LT/ORNO/K ORLTMO/R LONRLT MTO NO/ONRO/K ORLTMO/R MTO OGO/TMO/R KOLRGOMRNR/S LO/RMO LT/ORNO/K LO/RRLONRSMOLT NOR MTO PMO/RNOMPO/RLOR STGSLRMO GONRLRNO/KMO LO TRLOTNOMSNO/ONRLOR PMO/RNOMPO/RLOR TMO/PLRMO 4TO 4P/RONR/T MP/MOLO/TGO/RMO/S MONOGKT/T KOLRGOMRNR/S NOR/STMOLOT OMP SNO/KS MTO 4RO/TOPMO/S LTMO/PNO/KT LO 4TNOMPPO/RMONR/T MRGSMT/OLR/ONSO/K/LOR KONRMPLRNO/KT ONR MOLO/TMS MPLO/SMO RMO/PRMO/SMONR/TNOGR MTO NPO/KTORGS OMP ORLTMO/R ONPMO/R KGTLO/OS MTO NORRMO/R KOLRGOMRNR/S LO/RMO NOR MTO NO/ONRO/K ORLTMO/R MTO MP/RNOMOLSMO LTMO/PNO/KTS MTO PLONRLOMTONRLONO/K PROSMOSNO/ONR LO NR/OTLOPRMO LP/RMOLO/K MP/ROMR 4TO TGS/PNO/KLOR MRGSMT/OLR/ONSO/K/LOR SGOLPNSMO/KTS KLO/RNPMOLT NOR/TO MR/OST TMOR/PLRMO/S MTO GTSLP/RNOLT NRLO/TGO/RMO OMP 4TO TMOR/PLRMO RMOPLRMO/KTS LOMTMONR/S KONRRMO/KTNO/ONR GKNOMT LP/OMT MRLONORLRONRLT 4K/RMOO/SMO LONRLT NO/ONROLO

• RE: A Cipher Thought Experiment

  trajan117 > 21-03-2025, 07:03 PM

  (21-03-2025, 01:26 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Would I be correct in assuming that it is verbose in some way? The cipher text being longer than the plaintext?

  
  Hi Koen, I'm not going to answer your question right now. Perhaps tomorrow or the next day. I'm not trying to be obtuse or anything doing that, I just don't want to give hints right away. I just want to say I appreciate your videos and if it weren't for them, I probably never would have found this forum.
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