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Celestial faces
- Celestial faces
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RE: Celestial faces
Bluetoes101 > 01-03-2025, 01:52 AM
You know what this stuff reminds me of Koen, St Bernardino of Siena, IHS, f28v speculation.
Maybe it is not a sun with a mans head, but a mans head with wavy sun rays.
Granted, he had less hair.
A saints head with sun rays is expected. A sun with a head is not.
Obviously the "¯\_(ツ)_/¯" bin is involved here.. but when one door shuts.. and all that.. -
RE: Celestial faces
R. Sale > 01-03-2025, 09:10 PM
Another interesting source for examples of representations of celestial faces is the Berry Apocalypse (Paris, c. 1415) [MS M. 133]. There are half a dozen different illustrations with some variations, but not like the VMs. Obviously, there need to be multiple images in order to show variation and the Lauber artists don't seem to do that. The only celestial faces in the four Lauber Bibles are in the illustration of the Creation. There are no celestial faces, no sun or moon at all in three illustrations of the Crucifixion from the same Lauber sources.
The Berry connection is significant because of the comparison between the VMs cosmos and BNF Fr. 565.
An old source where celestial personifications have heads, necks, shoulders, arms and torsos.
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The potential connection of this ms. to Corbie is interesting as well.
The most exceptional thing about the VMs illustrations of celestial faces is the depiction of the headbands in two illustrations. What is the significance of this for the VMs artist? -
RE: Celestial faces
Koen G > 01-03-2025, 09:25 PM
Yeah that's what I meant about older sources. They are still pretty close to the Roman era and its iconographic successors like the Carolingians. So you go from Sol and Luna as pagan deities to sun and moon as full body personifications. The next step is to have them kind of enclosed within the celestial body. And then there's just the face.
There might actually be an unbroken connection between Roman deities and modern people/children drawing a face on the Sun or moon.
Now where along that path does the VM with its hybrid forms come in? -
RE: Celestial faces
R. Sale > 01-03-2025, 10:28 PM
"Where" is a difficult question. It's not a place; it's a person. A person who has traveled to various places and gained a certain knowledge of things.
"When" is problematic because it is unclear in this example as to whether the combination is a natural reflection of some societal situation or whether it is something forced by the VMs artist. The cosmic combination and the duality of White Aries are demonstrations of VMs 'creativity' - an apparent willingness to use obfuscation and trickery, or the ability to use heraldic canting for readers who don't know what heraldic canting is.
What is the trick this time? What has been hybridized to what? And where did it come from? The depiction of fillets as headbands in illustrations of this era so far seems to be highly atypical, with nothing connected to any representations of celestial faces -
RE: Celestial faces
Bluetoes101 > 02-03-2025, 12:04 AM
I'm spending a little time on this tonight. I feel like there's at least some possibility something like this could be intended. I'm ignoring the whole sun thing for now, and just focusing on the head. I feel like the key things which are not taken into account by an assumption it is a fillet over hair, is the top and bottom detail - as noted by Diane.
I feel like something like this, or variation including a fillet could be plausible. Looking at/for manuscripts with examples of this sort of thing currently.
![[Image: so.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/L4zpkWxZ/so.jpg)
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RE: Celestial faces
Koen G > 03-03-2025, 11:38 PM
I would count those as "simple face" though. Eyes, a nose and a mouth. No neck, no hair, no clothing...
There's a bit of it in this MS (first couple of folios): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(Also check the last few folios for some nice scribbles & various messages).
There's perhaps a better example in the Creation mosaic of the San Marco in Venice:
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![[Image: d0f2c706890df60797752b57b28a90c8.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d0/f2/c7/d0f2c706890df60797752b57b28a90c8.jpg)
I assume this might be due to its artistic proximity to classical sources.
And there's also Hildegard (rather idiosyncratic): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I have a feeling that the VM examples come from elsewhere though, but I only find examples of veiled moons. Sun heads are much harder to find. -
RE: Celestial faces
MarcoP > 04-03-2025, 04:18 PM
(03-03-2025, 11:38 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And there's also Hildegard (rather idiosyncratic): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Hi Koen, that illustration appears to be from the Rothschild Canticles:
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RE: Celestial faces
R. Sale > 04-03-2025, 08:31 PM
The Rothschild is artistically interesting, but thematically it's on the religious side of celestial rather than the astro side. If they are the sun and the moon, which one is which?
The San Marco mosaic is significant. Many travelers through Venice could have seen it. The sun in particular is a strong comparison. It's a full head and it's facing to the right. If it had a headband, we'd be in business. The VMs depictions of a headband remain as the primary problem.
The mosaic stars also have central dots.