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F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

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• F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

• F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  eggyk > 09-02-2025, 08:45 PM

  Hello, 
  
  While working on ideas for the marginalia on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , possible interpretations I was sifting through included the (re)illuminating of the red colour on the roots. ChatGPT (amongst many spurious and irrelevant pieces of information) mentioned the plant "Alkanna tinctoria", otherwise referred to as Dyer's Alkanet, Alkanna Matthioli, and some other names. 
  
  I did some looking, and in my opinion, the resemblance of Alkanet with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is rather close. I looked around here and hadn't seen it mentioned yet. If it has been discussed already, I apologise. 
  
     
  Here are a couple of links to some images of the plant as i do not wish to post copyrighted images here:
  
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  This one also has a couple of images of the fresh roots:
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  It grows primarily across the mediterranean and southern europe. It seems that the plant grows into quite "bushy" formations. Interestingly, some of it's leaves also seem to redden, which also draws my attention to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Blue flowers/bulbs, bushy, reddened leaves?
  
  Here are some wonderful photos showing those red leaves (amongst many other shots):
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  Alkanet root has been used as a source for red/purplish dye and a few medicinal purposes since antiquity. If this really is correct, it would certainly be interesting as it may imply that the manuscript provided information on where to collect the materials to create dyes and pigments.
  
  I would be interested in some opinions on this, is there anything to it? If so, what information would that provide to us?

• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  Koen G > 09-02-2025, 09:45 PM

  As always with VM plant identifications, there are some tantalizing similarities as well as some major differences.
  
  The arrangement of the leaves is slightly different, but I'd say certainly close enough.
  
  The flowers though... Flowers with 5 petals are a common, distinct type, which the VM artists knew. They clearly drew a different type of flower here.
  
  In this post, Marco links to a Buglossa in Auslasser. You can see that this drawing does get these aspects right:
  
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• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  MarcoP > 10-02-2025, 07:23 AM

  deleted

• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  Scarecrow > 10-02-2025, 10:29 AM

  Interesting properties of Anchusa strigosa (a relative): Anchusa strigosa Banks and Sol. is a rough flowering plant of the Boraginaceae family native to Eastern Mediterranean region that is widely used in traditional herbal medicine, mainly for the treatment of wounds, abdominal pain, and arthritis, to name a few. 
  
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• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  eggyk > 10-02-2025, 12:08 PM

  (09-02-2025, 09:45 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As always with VM plant identifications, there are some tantalizing similarities as well as some major differences.
  
  The arrangement of the leaves is slightly different, but I'd say certainly close enough.
  
  The flowers though... Flowers with 5 petals are a common, distinct type, which the VM artists knew. They clearly drew a different type of flower here.
  
  In this post, Marco links to a Buglossa in Auslasser. You can see that this drawing does get these aspects right:
  
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  Thanks for that link!
  
  In regards to the flowers, I accept your point. I'd like to state a couple of ideas why they would not draw them as 4 or 5 petalled leaves and maybe someone here can tell me if there is precedent elsewhere. 
  
  This species of plant appears to have many slight variations. Even in the links I posted, there are slightly different looking plant tops. Sometimes there is only 1 flower on a stem, but often there appears to be a bunch of flowers on a single stem. 
  
  Here are 2 examples from the links i posted above:
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  Additionally, if the plant is to be harvested before or after the flowers are in bloom, that bunch may still be budding or wilted. 
  
         
  
  Unfortunately I don't know the specifics of how and when Alkanet needs to be harvested for use. That information would be very useful to rule out some of my speculation.
  
  Either way, if this species was wide ranging and well known, the illustration may also be a sort of average/amalgamation of that species of plant. As I mentioned, there is some variability within this species, not to mention the differences between these images and the one that Marco/Scarecrow posted here. However, I can readily imagine someone looking at the VM illustration and simply saying "ah yes, one of those bushy plants with the blue flowers that we use for red dye". In that case, the leaf shape, blue flowers and red roots may be enough to convey what it is. If the person can read the VM manuscript, it would be even more clear (presumably).
  
  I did try to find some examples of Alkanet in a manuscript in the same presumed time period as the VM but fell short. It would be interesting to see if there are variations in its depiction throughout time.

• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  R. Sale > 10-02-2025, 10:19 PM

  Are there monographs for either one of these plants in medieval, herbal sources? It would seem that a medical plant would be more relevant to the VMs than one used as a dye.

• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  MarcoP > 12-02-2025, 12:35 AM

  (10-02-2025, 12:08 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I did try to find some examples of Alkanet in a manuscript in the same presumed time period as the VM but fell short. It would be interesting to see if there are variations in its depiction throughout time.

  
  In European medieval manuscripts, the plant is usually called Buglossa. These three examples are related with the Tractatus De Herbis tradition (from the left: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Manfredus You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The first link also shows a couple of Eastern herbals. You can compare these illustrations with Auslasser's drawing linked by Koen.
  
     

• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  eggyk > 13-02-2025, 02:09 PM

  (12-02-2025, 12:35 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In European medieval manuscripts, the plant is usually called Buglossa. These three examples are related with the Tractatus De Herbis tradition (from the left: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Manfredus You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The first link also shows a couple of Eastern herbals. You can compare these illustrations with Auslasser's drawing linked by Koen

  
  Thank you for those. I'm having a few difficulties here. Are there a range of plants that were all referred to as buglossa or alkannet? In my (admittedly amateur) opinion, the plants that you linked do not resemble the images I linked in my OP. Beyond the flower itself, perhaps. 
  
  They do look very similar to the one scarecrow posted, but that's a relative. If you google buglossa, you also see many examples of plants that look the same. But if you search alkanna tinctoria, theres very clearly a big difference there. 
  
  I don't mean to dismiss at all. I just mean that if i was handed one of those manuscript examples and told me to pick one in real life, i would be very doubtful picking the Alkanna Tinctoria (especially the bushy ones) and would likely pick the buglossa without much doubt. On the other hand, if you showed me the voynich plant and told me to do the same, i would likely never pick the buglossa but would likely recognise and pick Alkanna Tinctoria. 
  
  I suppose my broader point is that giving a yes/no/maybe plant ID may have to be done on a (sub)species to (sub)species basis. In this case, Alkanet/buglossa as a whole may not be a narrow enough definition for an ID.

• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  Koen G > 13-02-2025, 04:23 PM

  An important piece of information might be that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has these same flowers but in white-green. The plant itself looks different.
  ELV thinks the flowers look like one of the many clover species or a Scabious. Bernd thinks they look like Asteraceae... 
  
  Either way, it appears unlikely to me this flower shape was invented as a fluke, twice.

• RE: F17r plant: Alkanna Tinctoria?

  MarcoP > 13-02-2025, 04:39 PM

  In medieval illustrated herbals, it's often difficult to identify the exact subspecies intended. Dioscorides includes You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the one on the left is is Alkanna Tinctoria. It should be noted that one of authors of the Purdue page is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., who identified Voynichese flora as American.
     
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