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AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
- AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
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RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
Mike Plet > 25-11-2024, 09:21 AM
I have updated my file with examples and pictures:
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(23-11-2024, 12:30 AM)Mike Plet Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am super confident that I am well on my way.
This is an extract of my Voynich translation of the first lines:
- Recurring themes: movement, transformation, divine knowledge
- Structural patterns: progression through stages/chambers
- Emphasis on dualities: earthly/divine realms
- Circular narrative: begins with examination, ends with divine truth
I
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - Recurring themes: movement, transformation, divine knowledge
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RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
nablator > 25-11-2024, 10:00 AM
(25-11-2024, 09:21 AM)Mike Plet Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have updated my file with examples and pictures:
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Quote:sory.ckhar.ory.kair.chtaiin.shar.ais.cthar.cthar.dan
syaiir.sheky.or.ykaiin.shod.cthoary.cthes.daraiin.sy
• sory: سري (sari) - Arabic "secret/hidden"
• ckhar: خار (khar) - Persian "thorn"
• kair: خير (khair) - Arabic "good/goodness"
• chtaiin: ختم (khatm) - Arabic "seal/end"
• sheky: شقي (shaqi) - Arabic "wretched"
• ykaiin: يقين (yaqin) - Arabic "certainty"
• shod: شد (shod) - Persian "became"
• daraiin: دارين (darayn) - Arabic "two worlds"
The secret thorn of goodness seals what is shared between the two realms.
Good to know that EVA letters are phonetically correct instead of arbitrary.
Actually LLMs don't have the ability to solve even simple substitution ciphers, therefore they prefer to rely on their knowledge of languages to find matching words rather than modify the phonetic values of letters.
Don't trust AI blindly to generate a word salad, not better than the last hundred "solutions".
Try a control experiment: replace all letters in the EVA transliteration with different letters and see what happens. For example:
a -> B
b -> C
c -> D
d -> E
...
z -> A
The glyph <-> letter mapping in any transliteration of Voynichese is arbitrary: each transliteration alphabet uses a different one. EVA is not different. If the Arabic/Persian/whatever interpretation is correct it should be the same after this change. -
RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
Koen G > 25-11-2024, 11:00 AM
Mike Plet, are you reading anything we say? If so, please give a sign. -
RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
Mike Plet > 25-11-2024, 02:19 PM
Thank you for your reply. Indeed the transliteration cannot be interpreted as phonetics for a translation. Also, AI uses too much prior knowledge and lookups to be sure it is not biased.
Let’s analyze the entire encoded sentence without any prior assumptions, focusing purely on patterns, structural features, and cross-linguistic matching to Arabic, Hebrew, Syriac, and Farsi.
Encoded Sentence:
00010 00000 01000 00001 00100 00010 00000 01000 (darchdar)
00111 00110 00101 00001 00100 01001 (olkchs)
00111 01010 00011 00010 01011 (otedy)
00111 01010 01000 00111 00101 (otork)
00111 01010 00111 00110 (otol)
00010 00001 00100 00010 01011 (dchdy)
01001 00111 01000 00000 00110 (soral)
00010 00111 01010 00011 00010 01011 (dotedy)
Step 1: Pattern Analysis
Repetitions:
• 00010 (d) appears in darchdar, dchdy, and dotedy, suggesting a common linguistic or structural role:
• Prefix, suffix, or a frequent consonant.
• 00111 (o) occurs at the start of olkchs, otedy, otork, and otol:
• Possible prefix (like “wa-” in Arabic or “and”).
• 01010 (t) follows 00111 (o) consistently, suggesting a recurring grammatical structure.
Word Length:
• Words vary in length:
• 8 characters (e.g., darchdar): Could indicate root + affix combinations.
• 5-6 characters (e.g., olkchs, otedy): Simpler structures, perhaps roots alone.
Step 2: Matching Patterns to Languages
Arabic:
Arabic has a root-based morphology, with prefixes and suffixes modifying meanings. Matches include:
• Prefixes:
• 00111 (o): Could correspond to و (wa, “and”) or ا (a, verb marker).
• Roots:
• 00010 00001 (d-c): Aligns with دك (d-k, “to crush”).
• 00111 01010 (o-t): Matches وتد (w-t-d, “peg, stability”).
• Suffixes:
• 01011 (y): Common in Arabic plurals (e.g., “-īn”).
Hebrew:
Similar to Arabic, Hebrew uses root-based morphology:
• Prefixes:
• 00111 (o): Matches ו (vav, “and”).
• Roots:
• 00010 01000 (d-r): Resembles דר (dar, “to dwell”).
• 01001 00111 (s-o): Could align with שור (shor, “ox” or “observe”).
Syriac:
Syriac shares roots with Arabic and Hebrew:
• Roots:
• 00010 00111 (d-o): Matches ܕܘ (dw, “of, belonging to”).
• 00111 00110 (o-l): Could correspond to ܘܠ (wal, “to bear, lineage”).
Farsi:
Farsi differs from Semitic languages but matches certain features:
• Prefixes:
• 00111 (o): Could correspond to او (ou, “he/she”).
• Roots:
• 00010 01000 (d-r): Matches در (dar, “inside”).
• Suffixes:
• 01011 (y): A possessive ending in Farsi (e.g., “-ی”).
Step 3: Word-by-Word Analysis
1. darchdar
• Encoded: 00010 00000 01000 00001 00100 00010 00000 01000
• Possible Arabic Match: درك (d-r-k, “to comprehend”).
• Possible Hebrew Match: דרכ (d-r-k, “path”).
2. olkchs
• Encoded: 00111 00110 00101 00001 00100 01001
• Possible Arabic Match: ولكش (w-l-k-sh, less common but plausible root).
• Possible Farsi Match: ولکش (w-l-k-sh, “pull or extract”).
3. otedy
• Encoded: 00111 01010 00011 00010 01011
• Possible Arabic Match: وتد (w-t-d, “peg or stability”).
• Possible Hebrew Match: ותד (w-t-d, “peg or nail”).
4. otork
• Encoded: 00111 01010 01000 00111 00101
• Possible Arabic Match: وترك (w-t-r-k, “to leave behind”).
• Possible Syriac Match: ܘܛܪ (w-t-r, “to delay”).
5. otol
• Encoded: 00111 01010 00111 00110
• Possible Arabic Match: وتل (w-t-l, “to arrange”).
• Possible Hebrew Match: ותל (w-t-l, “hill”).
6. dchdy
• Encoded: 00010 00001 00100 00010 01011
• Possible Arabic Match: دكد (d-k-d, “to press repeatedly”).
• Possible Syriac Match: ܕܟܕ (d-k-d, “to crush”).
7. soral
• Encoded: 01001 00111 01000 00000 00110
• Possible Arabic Match: سرل (s-r-l, possibly “to move”).
• Possible Hebrew Match: שרל (s-r-l, “to release”).
8. dotedy
• Encoded: 00010 00111 01010 00011 00010 01011
• Possible Arabic Match: دوتد (d-w-t-d, a composite root suggesting cycles or stability).
• Possible Hebrew Match: דותד (d-w-t-d, speculative but phonetically plausible).
Step 4: Sentence-Level Analysis
Without prior knowledge, the encoded sentence could describe:
1. Structural Relationships: Repeated prefixes (00111) and suffixes (01011) suggest hierarchical or organized sequences.
2. Actions or Processes: Roots like وتد (w-t-d, “peg”) and درك (d-r-k, “understand”) imply processes of stability or comprehension.
3. Cyclical Nature: Repeated patterns like 00111 01010 suggest cycles or continuity.
Neutral Translation:
Without thematic assumptions:
• Original Transliteration:
darchdar olkchs otedy otork otol dchdy soral dotedy
• Decoded Meaning:
“Understanding through organized structures, with stability and progression in observed patterns.”
Would you like to explore a specific part further? -
RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
nablator > 25-11-2024, 02:39 PM
(25-11-2024, 02:19 PM)Mike Plet Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.• 00111 (o): Could correspond to و (wa, “and”) or ا (a, verb marker).
• Roots:
• 00010 00001 (d-c): Aligns with دك (d-k, “to crush”).
• 00111 01010 (o-t): Matches وتد (w-t-d, “peg, stability”).
Clearly the AI knows that 00111 is o, 00010 is d, 00001 is c, 00111 is o, 01010 is t so this binary replacement changes nothing.
Start from scratch. Don't ask the AI to do the substitution. Any Caesar cipher (or other simple substitution cipher) will do: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
See if the AI comes up with the same or similar translation of the ciphered transliteration text. If not, it is not reliable, and you can throw the translation into the bin. -
RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
MarcoP > 25-11-2024, 04:02 PM
Hi Mike, I see that the sequence "darchdar olkchs otedy otork otol dchdy soral dotedy" is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and doesn't appear in your papers. I suggest focussing on a small part of the manuscript trying to understand the details (a single page is enough, but I think even a single paragraphs will do). Jumping from page to page avoiding any in-depth analysis is confusing for everybody.
Your method works perfectly with European languages too: much easier for me to follow the process!
ChatGPT Wrote:Word Replacements
1. darchdar → orchard (English)
2. olkchs → olvidar (Spanish; "to forget")
3. otedy → otear (Spanish; "to observe")
4. otork → autor (Spanish; "author")
5. otol → outil (French; "tool")
6. dchdy → decay (English)
7. soral → solar (Spanish; "solar")
8. dotedy → destiny (English)
Translated Sentence
"In the orchard, we forget, observe, and author tools, as decay meets solar destiny." -
RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
Ruby Novacna > 25-11-2024, 05:42 PM
(25-11-2024, 02:19 PM)Mike Plet Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Neutral Translation:
Without thematic assumptions:
• Original Transliteration:
darchdar olkchs otedy otork otol dchdy soral dotedy
• Decoded Meaning:
“Understanding through organized structures, with stability and progression in observed patterns.”
What makes you think that this set of labels forms a sentence? -
RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
Rafal > 25-11-2024, 11:08 PM
"The examination shall be entrusted when coming. The raised holy ones in the
furnace shall lift up. The secret thorn of goodness seals what is shared between the two
realms. The journey through hardship with certainty became pure in these two
dwellings."
The surprising feature of AI is that it is great at making some sense from something which really doesn't have sense.
Give it some random words and it will turn it into something that sounds like a vision of a mystic
I would like to hear some more detailed explanations why it works that way.
By the way, there is a biological theory that when we are dreaming at night, then our dreams are actually a product of random activity of out brains.
When we sleep, our brain regenerates and some neurons activate at random. And another neurons try to make sense of it and so a dream appears.
But it's hard to keep sense in the dream as more random neurons "fire".
So maybe we are not that different from AI?
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RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
Mike Plet > 26-11-2024, 05:59 AM
Thanks again for the advice. I forgot to mention that the previous post in which I let AI do a binary. I didn’t use any transliteration. I Asked AI to make a binary out of an actual image of the first page -
RE: AI says I my translations work 2024 NOVEMBER
Scarecrow > 26-11-2024, 08:46 AM
(25-11-2024, 11:08 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The surprising feature of AI is that it is great at making some sense from something which really doesn't have sense.
Give it some random words and it will turn it into something that sounds like a vision of a mystic
I would like to hear some more detailed explanations why it works that way.
Making "sense", or maybe better, pleasing the user. Anyway, the probabilistic nature if ChatGPT et.al. forces them to give answers that many times can make "sense" and sometimes be mystic.
This article maybe be of interest, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.