I believe we've discussed that in the thread already, but I can't see how a presbyter could fit into the context.

So the scribes are gossiping about their elder from France who doesn't speak German 

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(02-01-2020, 11:04 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I believe we've discussed that in the thread already, but I can't see how a presbyter could fit into the context.

There's not much context on this line for anything to fit into...

(It is quite possible that the lines are separate from each other)

On the contrary, there's a good deal of a context. Two vords (why Voynichese?) and so nim whatever.

Where's the place for a priest, Kyrieleis?

It didn't only mean priest. It meant elder. It was a term of respect.

Most medical care was given by monasteries (and mothers). So, the term "elder" (whether ecclesiastical or general) might refer to someone recommending a remedy.

Yes elder, but not a general elder, but church elder specifically.

Church elders are very likely to be around a place where manuscripts are made.

About "so nim..." it starts where the line appears broken, I'm not sure whether it should be one sentence. And even if it is, we still don't have any convincing reading for the entire line.

Since "Maria" appears in the text, rather than the names of Pagan gods (which were used in early charms, assuming it might be a charm or remedy), there's a strong chance that it refers to Virgin Mary (who was frequently invoked in Christianized charms). So, there's nothing out of place if the word on the last line is an abbreviation for presbyteren

Excuse me but I don't see how Virgin Mary (frequently invoked indeed) would invoke a presbyter subsequently. Usually that would be the other way around.

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Not asserting that that's impossible, but really looks out of context for me. And -en would be plural, would not it?

The last line is something about somebody giving something. If the top lines are part of a charm, the last line might be something about who they got it from (or got the ingredients from). If so, a presbyter would be one of the more likely people to offer this kind of advice or information (or ingredients) in the Middle Ages.


Whether it's plural depends on the region. If it's southern, then yes, plural, if Saxon or Norman, then the "en" could be the article (the presbiter). They didn't use the word "the" in many areas and I've noticed that Saxon writings blend German with the northern grammar.

No it's not about giving, it's about taking - if we take the "nim" for imperative, as modern "nimm!"

Whether its about taking the goat's milk, or taking some enigmatic "me" (German "mich"), it's about taking, and it strongly suggests using the spell (impersonated as "mich") or something associated with the spell, likewise impersonated.

What precedes that in the Voynichese tongue, as I argued back in 2015, would probably be:

• quantitative characteristic, like “three times” or “seven days”;
  
• qualitative modus operandi, like “wear on the neck”;
  
• name of the disease, like “against delirium tremens”.
  

So the midline's reading could be attacked from this perspective. Would presbyters fit that, and if yes, then how?