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• RE: f17r multispectral images

  Koen G > 13-09-2024, 06:01 AM

  I'm the first to admit when I don't know enough about a subject to talk about it with any certainty,  but in this case I can say with certainty that some parts of the marginalia are not problematic.
  
  * "so nim" is frequent in recipe books, both cooking and pharmacy. We expect it to be followed by an ingredient. 
  * Gasmich is one word, and expected to be an ingredient. It does need a bit of massaging to be read as goat's milk, but it's not too much of a stretch. I wouldn't insist on this one though.
  * poxleber is an excellent reading of the word, and the translation to male goat's liver is not problematic. The x for "ck + genitive-s" is rare, but not unattested. 
  *The central two lines have been shown to contain attested elements of charms: crosses, holy names (Maria in this case), hocus pocus language, capital N for insertion of the patient's or other subject's name when reading.
  
  So we've got a "charm" in the middle and two ingredient-related lines top and bottom. I think there is enough certainty about this, which I don't say lightly in this case.
  
  That said, I fully agree with Bernd's sentiment that it's bizarre that we can't make sense of the marginalia overall. Something's going on, and I think Patrick's line of reasoning is interesting. But that doesn't mean we have to get rid of the few footholds we have - quite on the contrary. A reading like "so nim" is solid, even if we can't read the words around it.
  
  The fact that pocks leber would be spelled with x (again, a possible but rare choice) might already give us some insight into the marginalia writer's ways.
  
  
  Edit: Patrick, regarding the 8-shapes: the ones on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are problematic. When I was studying the marginalia script with Marco, these gave us trouble. Lisa confirmed. However, as Aga points out, the one on f66 is different, an can be read as a final-s without much trouble.

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  hiki33 > 13-09-2024, 02:14 PM

  Maybe the marginalia are pen tests as I've seen someone suggest. So the author copied single words or phrases from somewhere and sometimes drew an illustration, they're not supposed to make sense in conjunction.

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  Koen G > 13-09-2024, 02:58 PM

  (13-09-2024, 02:14 PM)hiki33 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe the marginalia are pen tests as I've seen someone suggest. So the author copied single words or phrases from somewhere and sometimes drew an illustration, they're not supposed to make sense in conjunction.

  
  That was probably me. The thing with pen trials as a phenomenon is that they are common in manuscripts, but people don't know about them. It's mostly Erik Kwakkel who wrote about them: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .  There are various kinds: a scribe could write a random phrase they had in their mind, just to test their pen or their ink. Often they would also write the alphabet. Or "I am testing my pen". Stuff like that.
  
  If they are pen tests, they must be of the first kind (scribe wrote whatever came to his mind), which may still make them interesting. 
  
  When I see one of those pages with pen trials like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I can't help but be reminded of f116v.
  
  Kwakkel includes the following example as the most extreme case he has seen. Note that it includes a number of familiar items: doodles of human figures. Disjoint phrases (or at least words in a phrase-like line). Maria.
  
     

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  Aga Tentakulus > 13-09-2024, 04:17 PM

     
  
  Oh yes, there are so many things.
  Here are 2 birds with one stone.
  Example of writing and drawing, and on the other side just mentioned by Lisa. That double ff. This one does it too.

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  cabeswater > 13-09-2024, 07:47 PM

  (13-09-2024, 02:58 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (13-09-2024, 02:14 PM)hiki33 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe the marginalia are pen tests as I've seen someone suggest. So the author copied single words or phrases from somewhere and sometimes drew an illustration, they're not supposed to make sense in conjunction.

  
  That was probably me. The thing with pen trials as a phenomenon is that they are common in manuscripts, but people don't know about them. It's mostly Erik Kwakkel who wrote about them: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .  There are various kinds: a scribe could write a random phrase they had in their mind, just to test their pen or their ink. Often they would also write the alphabet. Or "I am testing my pen". Stuff like that.
  
  If they are pen tests, they must be of the first kind (scribe wrote whatever came to his mind), which may still make them interesting. 
  
  When I see one of those pages with pen trials like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I can't help but be reminded of f116v.
  
  Kwakkel includes the following example as the most extreme case he has seen. Note that it includes a number of familiar items: doodles of human figures. Disjoint phrases (or at least words in a phrase-like line). Maria.

  
  Scribal glosses, sometimes very meta, are seen in Irish manuscripts, my personal favourite being this Ogham gloss a scribe wrote atop a Latin copy of Priscian's Institutiones grammaticae: "latheirt", literally "ale-killed", or deathly hungover to us.
  
  
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  hiki33 > 13-09-2024, 08:27 PM

  (13-09-2024, 02:58 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (13-09-2024, 02:14 PM)hiki33 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe the marginalia are pen tests as I've seen someone suggest. So the author copied single words or phrases from somewhere and sometimes drew an illustration, they're not supposed to make sense in conjunction.

  
  That was probably me. The thing with pen trials as a phenomenon is that they are common in manuscripts, but people don't know about them. It's mostly Erik Kwakkel who wrote about them: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .  There are various kinds: a scribe could write a random phrase they had in their mind, just to test their pen or their ink. Often they would also write the alphabet. Or "I am testing my pen". Stuff like that.
  
  If they are pen tests, they must be of the first kind (scribe wrote whatever came to his mind), which may still make them interesting. 
  
  When I see one of those pages with pen trials like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I can't help but be reminded of f116v.
  
  Kwakkel includes the following example as the most extreme case he has seen. Note that it includes a number of familiar items: doodles of human figures. Disjoint phrases (or at least words in a phrase-like line). Maria.

  
  
  My apologies, I forgot who suggested it  
  
  But yes, this seems somewhat similar to the voynich marginalia. If we assume these are pen trials, maybe the columns of voynichese symbols on the margin of several pages like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are pen trials too?

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  Koen G > 13-09-2024, 09:03 PM

  Maybe. If so, this would be an excellent explanation for the alphabets on f1r. If the later writer (probably Marci) knew anything about scribes' habits of writing alphabets in margins, he may have suspected that the marginal series of voynichese glyphs he encountered there was in fact an alphabet. He may have then added his own alphabets right next to the glyphs.

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  Aga Tentakulus > 21-01-2025, 04:43 PM

  Zum Text F17.
  "aller" bedeutung "alle/alles zusammen" Es ist nicht aller Tage Abend. Ein Fest zu freuden aller.
  "alle" kann auch eine andere Bedeutung haben. "es gaat alle mal"
  "es geht auf jeden Fall, oder alles wird funktionieren.
  
  Das erste Wort "mulier" bedeutet, Ehefrau,Frau,Weib im Sinne von Angetraute. (Auch in Südtirol)
  Jetzt ist aber mit "aller".
  Was soll "mulier aller" bedeuten. Weib für alle ? Das wäre da ja eine Hure oder Puffmutter.
  
  Da sich "mulier" wahrscheinlich auf die Pflanze bezieht, (möglich echter Wundklee), so hat die Pflanze in vielen Regionen mit dem Wort "Frau- im Namen zu tun.
  
  Singemäss müsste es sich aber um "Mutter aller" handeln.
  
  "kuez" Wir schreiben und sprechen im Hochallemanischen "chuez". Im bayrischen wird aber kein "ch" verwendet sonder "k". Daher stecht "kuez" für kurz.
  
  "her" = "ihr"
  
  Das letzte Wort, sicher "vulkomme"  in deutsch "vollkommen".
  Jemand hat ein nettes Beispiel gebracht.
  
  So heisst der deutsche Text, nach meiner ansicht: Bezug vielleicht auf die Blüte.
  "Mutter aller, kurz ihr vollkommen" ....VM-Text.
  
  
  
  To the text F17.
  “aller” means ‘all/everything together’ It's not all evening. A celebration for the joy of all.
  “alle” can also have a different meaning. “es gaat alle mal”
  “it will definitely work, or everything will work out.
  
  The first word “mulier” means wife, woman, wife in the sense of a wife. (Also in South Tyrol)
  But now with “aller”.
  What does “mulier aller” mean? Woman for all? That would be a whore or a madam.
  
  Since “mulier” probably refers to the plant (possibly true kidney vetch), in many regions the plant has to do with the word “woman” in its name.
  
  However, it should be “mother of all”.
  
  “kuez” We write and speak ‘chuez’ in High Alemannic. In Bavarian, however, no “ch” is used but “k”. Therefore “kuez” stands for short.
  
  “her” = ”you/her”
  
  The last word, certainly “vulkomme” in German “vollkommen”.
  Someone gave a nice example.
  
  This is the German text, in my opinion: reference perhaps to the flower.
  “mother of all, short her perfect” ....VM-Text.
  
  
  Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  Aga Tentakulus > 30-01-2025, 11:39 AM

     
  
  Found.
  Someone had once placed a text on Astrology.
  The highlighted words correspond to the last word in the German text on page f17, hence the assumption for “vollkommen”. There are not many words that match this.

• RE: f17r multispectral images

  Koen G > 30-01-2025, 04:02 PM

  There's no way that second letter is an "o". And the word quite clearly ends in -ia.
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