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f17r multispectral images
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RE: f17r multispectral images
Juan_Sali > 11-09-2024, 01:43 PM
(10-09-2024, 06:05 AM)julian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, JKP made a comment in this thread: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I hadnt read that thread befiore. It is a long one.
The third word may be bumez (geninive case) (bumes), a variation of the german word baum (tree). I only found a sample or it:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
In the thead is also suggested that the fourth word could be the latin her(ba).
Maybe the first words are the name of a plant. -
RE: f17r multispectral images
V A L E N T I N > 11-09-2024, 04:25 PM
(10-09-2024, 08:30 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(10-09-2024, 04:29 PM)V A L E N T I N Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is my first answer on this beautiful platform
Oh why thank you
A worthy first post 
So it is probably -m. It is interesting that this is one of those "end of line" characters, and here it pops up at the end of a line of marginalia. The writer seems to have been very well informed.
Thank you very much!
Yes, you seem to be right. Although it could theoretically also be that the author of the sentence on page 17r simply copied the Voynichese words from other pages. This would not require a great deal of general knowledge about Voynichese. According to Voynichese.com, "aim" occurs 52 times. On the last page 116v, the scribe could easily have copied the two Voynichese words "aror Sheey" from page 104r, where both words are written one after the other.
The senseless copying of the words is possible, but I wonder why this should have been done. Perhaps this would have been the case if the Voynich manuscript was not based on a meaningful text and the attempt had been made to make the book appear authentic. If this were really the case, the author would not necessarily have had to copy, as he knows his method for generating text. Otherwise, it seems logical that the author of the sentences in Latin script could understand Voynichese. Was it because he was the/an author of the Voynich manuscript, or a later initiated reader?
Personally, I can well imagine (without knowing it, of course) that the writer of the sentences on pages 17r, maybe 66r and 116v is the same person. In my opinion, this person could also be the draughtsman of the drawings, if not the author of the entire manuscript. I think this not only because the same Voynichese used words, but also because the drawings on page 116v seems to me to be quite identical to all the others.
Best regards again!
Valentin -
RE: f17r multispectral images
Koen G > 11-09-2024, 06:08 PM
My impression after having studied similar handwritings together with Marco, is that the handwriting is definitely medieval. Certainly pre-1450. Very likely contemporaneous with the carbon dating of the vellum. My own opinion is that these inscriptions were most likely made by one of the scribes. (Others, like the month names and the alphabets on the first page are of course later).
I do believe we see the scribes (or always the same one) mixing Latin script and Voynichese in these three instances, which is very interesting. This really makes these voynichese parts and their context worth investigating. -
RE: f17r multispectral images
julian > 12-09-2024, 05:34 AM
(11-09-2024, 06:08 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I do believe we see the scribes (or always the same one) mixing Latin script and Voynichese in these three instances, which is very interesting. This really makes these voynichese parts and their context worth investigating.
I think this is a very important observation. The fact that we have plaintext words on the same line as Voynich words, strongly suggests that the Voynich words are indeed that: words. It also suggests that the meaning of those Voynich words must relate to the preceding Latin text, applying Occam's razor. -
RE: f17r multispectral images
Koen G > 12-09-2024, 07:01 AM
Julian: I'd be a bit more cautious. What it does show indeed is that Latin words can be used in combination with Voynichese in the scribe's mind. These particular lines, by the way, we cannot read with certainty in any of the three cases. Usage in a phrase is not exclusive to words though. Numerals can also be used in a sentence as well as codes.
Apart from that, another issue is that these are barely phrases. The words on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. inscription are haphazardly positioned in a diamond shape. And the phrases on 116v are disjoint.
I think the current one might be the most interesting. We've got a whole line of text, ending in voynichese, and moreover the Voynichese appears to respect end of like customs. -
RE: f17r multispectral images
oshfdk > 12-09-2024, 07:36 AM
(12-09-2024, 05:34 AM)julian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think this is a very important observation. The fact that we have plaintext words on the same line as Voynich words, strongly suggests that the Voynich words are indeed that: words. It also suggests that the meaning of those Voynich words must relate to the preceding Latin text, applying Occam's razor.
I'm not sure there are plaintext words there. As far as I understand, no part of Latin script on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks like an unambiguous clear phrase in any known language. So, if Voynichese is a ciphertext, the Latin parts could also be a ciphertext made look like something resembling a natural language. -
RE: f17r multispectral images
BessAgritianin > 12-09-2024, 07:41 AM
(10-09-2024, 03:03 AM)RadioFM Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Any updated readings of f17r's marginalia?
The important question is what is the last word?
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![[Image: screenshot-698.png]](https://manuscriptroadtrip.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/screenshot-698.png)
It does not start with "a". If we compare it to the other "a" letters of the Latin text. What is the first letter?
The second letter may be "i", or "r" whose upper part is missing... -
RE: f17r multispectral images
Scarecrow > 12-09-2024, 12:38 PM
(12-09-2024, 07:01 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think the current one might be the most interesting. We've got a whole line of text, ending in voynichese, and moreover the Voynichese appears to respect end of like customs.
According to Voynichese, there are just 7 exact "aim" matches and 45 where "aim" is part of it, like daim, daimm, oldaim.
So our curiosity not a frequent vord at least. -
RE: f17r multispectral images
pfeaster > 12-09-2024, 12:49 PM
(12-09-2024, 05:34 AM)julian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The fact that we have plaintext words on the same line as Voynich words, strongly suggests that the Voynich words are indeed that: words. It also suggests that the meaning of those Voynich words must relate to the preceding Latin text, applying Occam's razor.
I see that Koen has mentioned numerals already, but it's also possible to insert symbols such as %^&*#@ meaningfully into sequences of words, or even emoticons such as , without these insertions themselves being words. We often insert EVA strings such as [edy] into text written right here on this forum.
But when I look at the structure of the "plaintext" portions of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in particular, I find myself nudged in the exact opposite direction: what looks like "plaintext" seems to behave more like Voynichese written with Latin characters. Without quibbling over specifics, six + marix + morix + vix + ahia + ma+ria resembles the structure of Voynichese rather closely, even unto its rigid glyph order and repetitive quality. If vords aren't words, then perhaps six, marix, morix, etc. aren't words either, in spite of appearances. We might be seeing Latin characters integrated into a Voynichese structure rather than the other way around. -
RE: f17r multispectral images
Aga Tentakulus > 12-09-2024, 01:32 PM
The way the sentence looks, it could be a description of the plant below.
If you assume that it is VM in Latin, it helps if you think about a few Latin sentences.
" alea iacta est "