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[split] (another Mermaid thread)
- [split] (another Mermaid thread)
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[split] (another Mermaid thread)
ReneZ > 23-07-2024, 04:31 AM
The mermaid on f358r is certainly intriguing. The eyes are considered to be guard against the evil eye.
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RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Aga Tentakulus > 23-07-2024, 08:18 AM
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RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Koen G > 23-07-2024, 12:35 PM
(23-07-2024, 08:03 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And when I saw one picture, I immediately thought of the other.
That is an interesting parallel. I wonder if it is purely decorative? The page it is on appears to be something like the "urine color assessment" scene that's also found in other MSS.
I agree that the mermaid looks more like a land creature given its lack of the typical forked tail. Keep in mind that the person writing the descriptions appears to have been working from microfilm and did not see the images very well. At one point there is a person pulling at their long hair, which the description calls "a man with a towel".
Also, I wonder what this guy on f 90v is holding. He is labelled as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a 7th century surgeon known for his medical encyclopedia.
While I agree that this MS is a bit late, and sometimes very distant stylistically, it does reinforce my suspicion that "something with Dioscorides DNA" played an important part in shaping the VM. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
ReneZ > 24-07-2024, 01:27 AM
(23-07-2024, 06:13 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If a mermaid is defined as being a fish from the waist on down, then the *human* feet and serpent-like tail are very problematic. She might represent some version of a mythological Melusine, but she has arms, and no wings, so not tending to draconian.
Also note the red cheeks and lips, particularly in the first illustration (Post #81) and pretty much throughout.
There are many mermaid illustrations where the mermaid has both legs and a tail. Of course, it could still be another legendary creature. Definitely no wings though.
What intrigues me most are the eyes on the fish tail, because this is one of the odd things about the Voynich MS 'mermaid'.
In the older interpretation of 'woman eaten by fish' these would of course be the fish eyes. For a mermaid they are out of place, except of course in this new parallel.
This MS has many interesting things, for example use of Greek shorthand, and circular text with sequences of characters. It is not clear to me whether these sequences are understood by the experts or not.
Edit: just to avoid any misunderstanding: I do not see this MS in any more or less direct relationship with the Voynich MS. Rather as an interesting parallel and an example of unexplored sources. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Aga Tentakulus > 24-07-2024, 08:26 AM
What is a Melusine really?
Do we need to make a more precise distinction between mermaid and Melusine and sea creature?
This one probably best describes Rene's.
Tail, legs, but no wings.
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Then there is the same but with wings.
Arms, tail and legs are also there.
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Let's take a closer look.
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RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Aga Tentakulus > 24-07-2024, 08:57 AM
Sometimes the question is why things are the way they are.
Here we have Siren and Triton from Greek mythology.
The siren is actually a bird with a human head.
I could imagine that the bird's tail was interpreted as a fish's tail and thus the Melusine was created later.
Since the bird's tail and a fish's tail have some similarities.
But I don't know. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Koen G > 24-07-2024, 12:43 PM
(24-07-2024, 01:27 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Edit: just to avoid any misunderstanding: I do not see this MS in any more or less direct relationship with the Voynich MS. Rather as an interesting parallel and an example of unexplored sources.
Yeah, I think a direct connection is unlikely. Even though this MS might at times feel somewhat similar (some parts are quite unpolished), it is stylistically distant. What I do like about it is that it represents a collection of materials similar to what the VM authors may have had in a different source MS.
Regarding the VM mermaid, we cannot overlook that the human figure's legs are visible, standing in the fish part. That is why I think the best argument can be made that it was based on an image of Jonah emerging from the whale. These are my arguments - I am using some images I quickly grabbed off Google as illustrations. I am not saying the figure is Jonah, just that one of the widely available Jonah illustrations likely served as the model.
- When Jonah is eaten by the whale, he goes in head first. When he emerges from the whale, he comes out head first. In several cases, he can be seen "stepping", a bit like the VM figure.
- The whale is sometimes drawn as a complete fish, curved in the same way the VM "tail" is. But in the VM, the head of the fish is drawn in a very ambiguous way, with a warped perspective. We see the two eyes of the fish, which do not correspond to the perspective we see of the mouth. And the mouth is drawn in a 3D "tub" shape, with a rim surrounding the figure. The fact that the number of eyes is still limited to two, however, seems to me to suggest "fish" rather than "tail". Fish have two eyes.
- While the head of the fish is drawn awkwardly, the rest of the body is clearly modelled off a fish image, with scales and dorsal and ventral fins. True, mermaids also have this, but mermaids aren't shows with human legs standing inside of the fish part. This bit is quite crucial. And mermaid tails don't have two eyes. Notice how in the "evil eye" image, the eyes are all over the tail, not just in the in-between part. In the VM, they are in the general area where we would expect eyes, only the perspective is awful.
- The Bible verse where the whale spits out Jonah is at the end of Jonah 2. Most of this chapter shows Jonah repenting, in one long prayer to God. This is why in the majority of cases, Jonah is depicted in communication with God when he emerges from the whale. He can be shown praying (usually, but not always) and looking upwards (usually, but not always). The VM figure is not praying, but it is very explicitly looking upwards.
(Maybe I should split this thread). - When Jonah is eaten by the whale, he goes in head first. When he emerges from the whale, he comes out head first. In several cases, he can be seen "stepping", a bit like the VM figure.
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RE: [split] (another Mermaid thread)
R. Sale > 24-07-2024, 10:27 PM
When stories get conflated, things can get real messy. The best apparent connection to the VMs mermaid remains as the illustration from Harley 334, both of which feature a half-woman, half-(or more)-fish-like creature and four other creature companions. The text in Harley 334 does little to identify the mermaid creature. And a similar situation can be found in the two Lauber illustrations for 'Fish' and for 'Sea Monsters,' both depicting a mermaid. She is not a 'particular' mermaid, she is just *a mermaid*.
Harley 334 is significant because it is also part of the VMs cosmic comparison with BNF Fr. 565.
The difference between mermaids and Melusine(s) is the backstory. Mermaids don't have one. They are as generic as fish. Melusine is different. She has a personality. She was a mythological individual, like a Greek or Roman goddess. There were two different cultural variations of the Melusine story that seem most relevant, the version of Lusignan and the one from Luxembourg.
Closer examination of the VMs illustration reveals that this "mermaid" is not a real mermaid. Mermaids don't have thighs. Mermaids don't change into fully human form. [Not in the 1400s.] Melusine changes every week - in her bath. In Lusignan she's a dragon, but in Luxembourg she was partly like a fish, like a mermaid. The Valois descendants of Bonne of Luxembourg claimed ancestral connections to mythical Melusine. Jean, Duke of Berry, promoted Jean d'Arras' publication of the story of Melusine of Lusignan for his sister, and he was the holder of the Lusignan castle.
The Duke of Berry and his daughter, thrice married Marie, Duchess of Auvergne, were the owners of BNF Fr. 565, which is of primary (43) significance to the cosmic comparison - till her death in 1434.
If someone thinks that the VMs artistry is simple and unsophisticated, perhaps they should look again. In the VMs cosmos, changing the Earth from pictorial to linguistic is a code shift. Putting Melusine in place of a generic mermaid is transposition. Constructing illustrations with ambiguous interpretations like VMs White Aries is the creation of duality. Even more than deception and trickery, the VMs artist provided a paired pathway to somewhere. The presence of the pathway is as clear as the connection of Stolfi's marker and the tub with blue stripes on VMS White Aries. Beware the papellony cant. -
RE: [split] (another Mermaid thread)
R. Sale > 26-07-2024, 05:39 PM
All the examples transition at the waist. None of them have thighs like the VMs illustration - implying that the VMs may be showing a different type of creature.