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In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

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  • In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?
• In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  Mark Knowles > 07-04-2024, 01:08 PM

  (07-04-2024, 10:34 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Garments and fashions in the ms. suggest earlier rather than later I think, but then a later illustrator may have been following existing illustrations (poorly) rather than drawing from life.

  
  To me it appears to be a later attempted copy of an earlier drawing. People argue about the fashion, but I don't see the Voynich author being very concerned that the fashion is up to date in the drawings, especially given how crude the drawings are.

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  Mark Knowles > 07-04-2024, 01:12 PM

  (07-04-2024, 10:34 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Cryptographic scenarios are much richer from the 1460s onwards, for instance. There are things that look promising, but they are all a bit late. 

  I think as my research shows, in the early 15th century there was a rich, dynamic and evolving cipher culture. See the presentations I uploaded.

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  Mark Knowles > 07-04-2024, 01:19 PM

  (07-04-2024, 10:34 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I suspect the map might have been made first and the rest of the work has been assembled around it.

  In the context of my theory, I am reluctant to say whether the "map" was produced earlier or later. My theory would indicate that its creation proceeded the Germanically influenced documents such as the astrological drawings. As I suspect that some of the plants in the manuscript are alpine I would guess that the "map" creation proceeds the inclusion of those plants. However it also implies that the "map" was completed after the Germanic documents and alpine plants were included. The idea that the project was begun with the "map" page is attractive, but my hypothesis does not necessarily imply that.

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  Mark Knowles > 07-04-2024, 01:25 PM

  (07-04-2024, 10:34 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the map rests on prototypes from the 1300s.

  I don't think so. I suspect, though I could be mistaken, that the overall design of the "map" was of the author(s)' own creation. I don't think the author(s) needed a prototype, but rather I think it was an original design with layout based around the 3x3 large circles. I used to think that the author may have based it on a prototype, but now I don't think that was necessary as they were creative enough to come up with their own original design.

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  Mark Knowles > 07-04-2024, 01:31 PM

  (07-04-2024, 10:34 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the other hand, from the outset I've thought the map is earlier and separate and was possibly the place where the project began. (I originally thought the map was mid to late 1300s).

  
  Have you seen my map design?
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  ReneZ > 07-04-2024, 02:55 PM

  (07-04-2024, 01:08 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (07-04-2024, 10:34 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Garments and fashions in the ms. suggest earlier rather than later I think, but then a later illustrator may have been following existing illustrations (poorly) rather than drawing from life.

  
  To me it appears to be a later attempted copy of an earlier drawing. People argue about the fashion, but I don't see the Voynich author being very concerned that the fashion is up to date in the drawings, especially given how crude the drawings are.

  
  That sounds a lot like making the data fit the theory.
  
  Allow me to put more trust in the opinion of a medieval MS curator specialised in this aspect, than in that of Voynich theorists.
  
  That doesn't make me 'right', it just explains my logic.

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  Mark Knowles > 07-04-2024, 03:05 PM

  (07-04-2024, 02:55 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (07-04-2024, 01:08 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (07-04-2024, 10:34 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Garments and fashions in the ms. suggest earlier rather than later I think, but then a later illustrator may have been following existing illustrations (poorly) rather than drawing from life.

  
  To me it appears to be a later attempted copy of an earlier drawing. People argue about the fashion, but I don't see the Voynich author being very concerned that the fashion is up to date in the drawings, especially given how crude the drawings are.

  
  That sounds a lot like making the data fit the theory.

  
  Whatever the data is it could clearly fit either dating. In fact the Diebold Lauber drawings which are most similar to the Voynich are later, which would support a later dating.
  
  Maybe you are making the data fit your theory.
  
  

  (07-04-2024, 02:55 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Allow me to put more trust in the opinion of a medieval MS curator specialised in this aspect, than in that of Voynich theorists.

  
  Which curator are you referring to and what precisely did they say?

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  ReneZ > 08-04-2024, 12:24 AM

  (07-04-2024, 03:05 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In fact the Diebold Lauber drawings which are most similar to the Voynich are

  
  Diebold Lauber keeps coming up here, but I fail to see how the crude scribblings in the Voynich MS can have anything to do with such a professional setup and artistic workshop.

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  R. Sale > 08-04-2024, 02:05 AM

  Something that could have been drawn "from life" in 1420, could also have been drawn from memory in 1430, or 1440, etc. for some potential life span of the artist. More importanly, the VMs illustrations show us what the artist knew, and we need to have the same information in order to make the best interpretation. That doesn't happen very often, but there are a few instances. One of these is the VMs cosmos. It not only makes a significant historical connection, but it also demonstrates the intentional ambiguity and trickery that the artist has employed there and elsewhere.

• RE: In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?

  Hermes777 > 08-04-2024, 04:58 AM

  (07-04-2024, 01:12 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (07-04-2024, 10:34 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Cryptographic scenarios are much richer from the 1460s onwards, for instance. There are things that look promising, but they are all a bit late. 

  I think as my research shows, in the early 15th century there was a rich, dynamic and evolving cipher culture. See the presentations I uploaded.

  
  I will have a look Mark, and a much closer look at your Council of Basel scenario which I find interesting and which I think has merit.
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