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are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

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  • are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?
• are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

• are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  februs > 29-05-2023, 07:11 AM

  those pictures were written by ancient languages.
  have the pictures been deciphered? 
  and were the letters on the pages before and after the pictures deciphered?
  
  
  I guess they have been deciphered, but I haven't heard about them ( ；´Д｀)
  
  
  ancient Japanese documents have been deciphered in Japan. so I can read them in modern language. 
  
  
  once the text of the pictures or the text on the pages before and after the pictures are deciphered,
  we can understand  the meaning of the pictures.
  
  what does it look like now?
  
  [添付ファイル=7377]
  [添付ファイル=7378]
  [添付ファイル=7379]

• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  bi3mw > 29-05-2023, 09:21 AM

  The middle image shows the 12 winds. Here is a description:
  
  

  Quote:Diagram of the Winds (I) — "The T-O map of the inhabited world occupies the center of this wheel-shaped diagram. Twelve profile busts of the winds, their Latin names provided in encircling bands, are depicted in the diagram's wide outer ring; the narrower, unpainted ring just within it contains the winds' Greek names. The four major winds are associated with the four cardinal directions, with East located at the top of the wheel. The busts of the winds blow toward the Earth at the center of the diagram, and their breath, represented as green strokes, flows into the wheel's "spokes." Each spoke bears a brief characterization of the associated wind, and these are expressed mainly in the first-person, as if spoken by the wind itself. Thus, the spokes of this diagram function like speech bubbles in a modern cartoon."
  
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  Such representations existed more often. Here is a comparative image in the "Cotton MS Tiberius E IV", fol. 30r: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Here is another example from the eleventh century:
  BNF, MS lat. 7028, fol. 156r
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  Perhaps the following is interesting to read ( you must log in to read the whole article ) :
  Wind Diagrams and Medieval Cosmology, By Barbara Obrist
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  About the last image ( British library: Yates Thompson MS 31, folio 72r, "four seasons", 4th quarter of the 14th century. ):
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  Some background information (-ChatGTP-):
  Bede's work, "De temporum ratione" (The Reckoning of Time), does discuss the four seasons, elements, and humours within the context of his larger treatise on timekeeping and calendar calculations.
  
  In "De temporum ratione," Bede provides a detailed account of the calendar, including the division of the year into four seasons: spring, summer, autumn, and winter. He explores the agricultural, astronomical, and meteorological aspects associated with each season. Bede also connects the seasons with the concept of the four elements (earth, air, fire, and water) and their corresponding humours (melancholic, sanguine, choleric, and phlegmatic) as understood in medieval cosmology and medical theory. ( end ChatGTP )
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  It should be noted that the representation of the "four seasons" also has a tradition. There are both, figurative representations and purely text-based diagrams (e.g. Isidorus, Hispalensis: De natura rerum, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , fol. 5v., 8th century).
  
  

  Quote:The diagram in BSB Clm 14300 illustrates the chapter on seasons (or literally “times”, De temporibus) and depicts the four seasons of the year according to their qualities (combinations of hot, cold, moist, dry) and cardinal directions. Winter (north) is cold and humid, spring (east) humid and warm, summer (south) warm and dry, and autumn (west) dry and cold. The connections and oppositions of the qualities and seasons are neatly illustrated with a circle divided by 4 + 4 arcs (qualities + seasons).
  
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  edit:
  
  Syzygia elementorum (lat.):
  -------------------------------
  ver > spring
  aestas > summer
  autumnus > autumn
  hiemps > winter
     
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• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  februs > 30-05-2023, 09:44 AM

  very thanks bi3mw　(∩´∀｀)∩
  
  by the way, what is 12 winds?? 
  what does mean wind??
  
  
  
  I tried to read Wind Diagrams and Medieval Cosmology..
  but I couldn't copy the text, so I couldn't translate on google (´；ω；`)ｳｯ…
  so I can't read it (´・ω・`)
   

• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  bi3mw > 30-05-2023, 10:48 AM

  (30-05-2023, 09:44 AM)februs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.by the way, what is 12 winds??
  what does mean wind??

  
  I can't give a better explanation than in the quote above in the last post. Basically, you can imagine the representation like a wind rose ( Cardinal directions ) divided into its twelve segments with a T-O map in the center:
  
  North (N)
  North-Northeast (NNE)
  Northeast (NE)
  East (E)
  Southeast ( SE )
  South-Southeast ( SSE )
  South (S)
  South-Southwest (SSW)
  Southwest (SW)
  West (W)
  Northwest (NW)
  North-Northwest (NNW)
  
  

  (30-05-2023, 09:44 AM)februs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I tried to read Wind Diagrams and Medieval Cosmology..
  but I couldn't copy the text, so I couldn't translate on google (´；ω；`)ｳｯ…
  so I can't read it (´・ω・`)

  
  You can download the article by Barbara Obrist completely as PDF if you are logged in at JSTOR. I always do this via my university account, but you can apparently also register normally. In the saved PDF file you can select the text and copy it (into the translator).

• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  Aga Tentakulus > 30-05-2023, 11:06 AM

     
  
  Often the winds are also found as angels on old nautical charts.
  
  Here are 12 angels. East and west not so easy to see.

• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  bi3mw > 30-05-2023, 12:37 PM

  Info about the illustration @Aga posted:
  
  Cosmographia of Claudius Ptolemaeus
  Cosmographia [translated from Greek into Latin by Jacobus Angelus; edited by Nicolaus Germanus], Ulm, Johann Reger for Justus de Albano, 21 July 1486
  Description You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  There is an older edition (1472) in the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., folio 73r. However, the winds are hardly completely visible here.
  
     
  
  By the way, there is a nice facsimile of this work at the "usual suspects":
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  edit (OT):
  At a Library of Congress lecture (The World of Ptolemy and the Birth of the Cartographic Atlas), several atlases are shown at the end (starting at 52:00). Among them is also the Ulm edition shown above.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. It's interesting to see how accuracy has evolved over time.

• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  februs > 30-05-2023, 06:26 PM

  >bi3mw
  
  oh, come to think of it, there were 12 directions Σ(´∀｀；)
  I see....I was convinced.
  
  thank you(*- -)(*_ _)ペコリ
  
  >Aga Tentakulus ＆ bi3mw
  
  oh, it's nice photography(∩´∀｀)∩
  in the past, bless of angels was the directions...
  I would like to know a little bit why it came to be expressed that way..

• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  februs > 30-05-2023, 06:32 PM

  > bi3mw 
  
  I forgot to say...
  
  I logged in, but can't download by PDF.
  in JSTOR's explain, person who pay money can download by PDF.
  person who don't pay money ＆ who logged in can only browse.

• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  bi3mw > 30-05-2023, 07:22 PM

  (30-05-2023, 06:26 PM)februs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like to know a little bit why it came to be expressed that way..

  
  I found the following text excerpt in an article on JSTOR. The text presupposes a certain specialized knowledge, I do not understand it completely. To understand it requires some research, e.g: Who is Timosthenes ?, Who is Agathemer ? ( etc. ).
  
  

  Quote:Die antiken Grundlagen der mittelalterlichen Seekarten ( german title, in English: The ancient bases of the medieval nautical charts )
  
  Author(s): Richard Uhden
  Source: Imago Mundi , 1935, Vol. 1 (1935), pp. 1-19
  Published by: Taylor & Francis, Ltd
  
  The earliest example is the so-called wind rose of Timosthenes, about which again Agathemer gives the most detailed information. If one takes the opening words of the short summary in the sense discussed above, then they would read in the translation: Timosthenes, who made sea charts, reports about twelve winds" etc. The system of the winds appears to the Agathemer as the most remarkable at the testimony of the cartographic activity of Timosthenes. For us, the report reveals a map of the world arranged according to nautical criteria, which must have satisfied the highest requirements which were made in the time before Dikaearch to a comprehensive representation of the Oikumene. Timosthenes' distribution of countrys and peoples according to a 12-wind system starts from Rhodes as center; here their rays intersect at angles of 30°. It is the earliest, clearly recognizable archetype in the development of nautical charts.
  
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  Quote:Timosthenes of Rhodes (Greek: Τιμοσθένης) (fl. 270 BCE) was a Greek navigator, geographer and admiral in Ptolemaic navy. He is credited with inventing the system of twelve winds that became known as the Greek 12-wind rose.

  
  

  Quote:Timosthenes is also of particular importance because he is perhaps the first of the Greek geographers to go beyond treating the winds as merely meteorological phenomena and begin to view them properly as points of geographical direction. It is thanks to the Greco-Roman physician and geographer Agathemeros (flourished around 250 AD) that Timosthenes' wind table has been preserved, at least as a fragment. According to him, Timosthenes assigns geographical regions and peoples to each of the 12 winds - relative to Rhodes.

  
  The wind rose of Timosthenes is similar to that of Aristotle.
     
  
  edit:
  
  Look at page 153:
  
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  Here the representation of a (Ptolemaic) world map from 1503 with well recognizable 12 winds ( see last post ):
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• RE: are the pictures related about the pictures on the astronomy page undeciphered?

  februs > 31-05-2023, 06:07 PM

  > bi3mw
  
  thank you for introduce text and illustration (∩´∀｀)∩
  
  I see... from ancient, direction and wind have been linked...
  
  it was helpful for me.(*- -)(*_ _)ペコリ
  
  now, that the VM medallions seems to be related these things, I'll start thinking about them...
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