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Quire9-10 pattern
- Quire9-10 pattern
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RE: Quire9-10 pattern
Anton > 08-06-2022, 01:40 PM
(07-06-2022, 12:48 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let me rephrase: is there any guarantee that this is Ptolemy's system?
Would depend on the context, I think. If European, Byzantian or Arabic, the system would be Ptolemy's. If Indian or Chinese, would be the system adopted by those civilizations. But I guess it would not differ in the number of planets, since indeed, as noted above, those are the celestial bodies visible with naked eye. Might well differ in the number of stars, though. -
RE: Quire9-10 pattern
Anton > 08-06-2022, 01:52 PM
(07-06-2022, 12:57 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not sure if any of the central faces can be argued to represent a moon (some of the non-central faces clearly do). I do agree with Anton's sentiment that the majority of them appear to represent suns.
Koen, look at the patterns: what I consider to be the Sun is always with rays (that's the distinguishing feature). Also worth noting that it's always with one-sided nose. The nose mostly looks to the right, although in one place (70r2) it looks to the left.
The distinguishing feature of what I consider to be the Moon is the crescent. Interestingly, whenever the crescent is single, like in 68r2, the Moon has a one-sided nose. Whenever the crescent is double, as in 68r1 or 68r3, the nose is double sided. The only occasion when there is no cresent is the diagram on 67v2, where there clearly are two suns, so by way of opposition the two other bodies have to be moons, but there are no crescents (and they are single-nosed).
EDIT: 67r1 is a single-nosed double-crescent exception, and it's also with rays, so maybe this is some combination of Sun and Moon. -
RE: Quire9-10 pattern
Koen G > 08-06-2022, 04:00 PM
All of the cases where we are certain that it is a moon have just one crescent though. Why would there be two? Doesn't the moon have at most one crescent?
And indeed, there is the ray situation, although these rays are different from the others in the MS.
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RE: Quire9-10 pattern
MarcoP > 08-06-2022, 04:58 PM
(08-06-2022, 04:00 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All of the cases where we are certain that it is a moon have just one crescent though. Why would there be two? Doesn't the moon have at most one crescent?
And indeed, there is the ray situation, although these rays are different from the others in the MS.
Hi Koen, the double crescent is not unique to the Voynich ms, but I doubt it has any specific meaning.
I posted a couple of examples in the past:
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has two crescents to represent the full moon, here meaning "night". If there is a face (I am not sure I can see one), it could be a later addition? It certainly is less clear than the sun's face.
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Siena Intronati You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: here both the Sun and the Moon have two crescents with rays. -
RE: Quire9-10 pattern
Koen G > 08-06-2022, 05:49 PM
Thanks, Marco! The fact that this border is found in both Sun and moon might suggest that the reason is artistic rather than astronomically meaningful. -
RE: Quire9-10 pattern
R. Sale > 08-06-2022, 06:03 PM
Not to overstate the obvious, but couldn't this represent the Moon: waxing crescent, full Moon, waning crescent - all combined in one image???
Do the triangular, red rays indicate something other than light??
Light presents a real problem in Pythagorean systems. Where does *light* come from? Isn't that the purpose of the "central fire"? A problematic and erroneous set of hypotheses.
If the red areas are an indicator of the presence of light, are the blue areas an indication of the recognition that the Moon's light is reflective? Isn't that recognition basically universal across all early astronomical systems? -
RE: Quire9-10 pattern
R. Sale > 08-06-2022, 06:43 PM
As to why the Moon is represented so lavishly, perhaps the answer is becoming more obvious. The answer is not on this page, but elsewhere. It is the association of the Moon and the Virgin Mary. It is in VMs Virgo with subtle hints of the crescent moon beneath her feet. It is in the little Moon found in the center of the Wreath of the Virgin. It's in the tricky "rho-chi" of f67v1. Medieval Christian imagery is playing a part in the VMs illustrations. And though subtle in appearance, it need not be insignificant in content.