The map is starting to fill up nicely, this is what I wanted to get a better picture of
Of course, this doesn't tell us anything for sure about the VM, but at least it's concrete data. We know for sure that the VM belongs as a data point on this map.

A date of 1495 may be a bit late to be relevant to the VMs, but what it shows, along with Marco's latest images, is that the influence and the artistic presence of the swallowtail merlons continued throughout the 1400s, dependent on geography and experience, of course. The VMs C-14 dates occur within this century. The presence of swallowtail merlons in the VMs makes a connection with this history - rather than omit it. However, such presence need not indicate a direct and favorable connection. If the Golden Fleece et al. indicate a Burgundian interpretation, then there would have been a strong papal connection during the 1430s and onwards involving a potential crusade, not to mention La Sainte Hostie de Dijon. The VMs use of ecclesiastical heraldry from the traditions on the Catholic church (red galero) seems to add more weight to the papal side as well.

Anyone mentioned the 15th century You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.?


OK, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Italian guelfi versus ghibellini struggle, which saw two powerful bands supporting the Germanic houses of Bavaria versus Hohenstaufen in their eternal 13th century struggle to be the Holy Roman Empire.
The struggle developed into architecture : the ghibellini's started to build swallowtail merlons on their castles to symbolise their allegiance (some complicated Italian pun on their word for swallows).

That's why you get all these swallowtail merlons on Italian castles of the period.

David, the reason why I initially made this thread is because I wondered whether a political meaning was still likely in the 15th century. And if so, what meaning? Or would it already have been more likely that the architectural form could exist by itself, without any additional meaning besides the aestethic appeal?

For the collection thread in the "essentials" subforum, we are focusing on medieval depictions of swallowtail merlons to circumvent questions about later renovations.

To add a different context (and very close to your 1450 boundary), an interesting example from Jewish manuscript art: the Mishneh Torah, ca. 1457. It's attributed to the Master of the Barbo Missal, a Northern Italian artist.
According to an You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the Hebrew lettering is "Avodah", "service", and this is a sacrifice at the Temple.

*This MS is owned by the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. now and they say you're not supposed to enlarge or download the image from their site, but there are several articles about it from other sites with closeup images, so here are a few:

   
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]     [/font]

@Koen
I have a few questions for you.
What time period do you consider appropriate?
xxxx - 1450?
There are up to 50,000 photos of obiects in the archive. I would like to narrow it down a bit. I have already looked at 8000. But I would like to do it again.

What do you consider to be a safe indication?
Castles, paintings, frescoes, altars, art objects, books.
For me it is things where can not move.
With books it is such a thing. I take the example (Barcelona). It was probably written by a Jew. You don't know if he was on the run and finished the book in Barcelona. I have to make this assumption because there were no such battlements in Barcelona at that time, and because he was Jewish and the time of persecution. ( For me no safe reference )

What do you mean by St. Christoph am Arlberg? There should be nothing there. Have also found nothing. Do you have an example.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

   
PS: As art objects or objects I mean things where I also know where they were before.

Example: Stove tile

The Arlberg entry is about what Marco wrote here; it seemed okay to put a marker there as a general indication of the region. Should this be changed?

(14-09-2021, 09:32 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The heraldic devices I attached You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. date to the XIV century. The manuscript (München, Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv, Geheimes Hausarchiv, Bände 3) is from Tirol; it is about St. Christoph am Arlberg, but maybe it is more likely that the ms was written in a nearby town?

As for the 1450 cutoff, there are basically two reasons:

1) A pre-defined cutoff line is required to eliminate any kind of bias.If the data is gathered with well-defined rules, any arguments built upon it will be stronger.
2) It looks like the meaning, use and geographical extent of swallowtail merlons evolved throughout the 15th century. For this reason, I prefer to stick pretty close to the carbon-dating of the VM. With 1450, we still give it 12 years of leeway.

As for the region of production, it's simple: if we know where the thing was made, then that's where we put the marker

@Koen
Arlberg so to use is certainly OK. And the first you come to St. Christoph.  Is for me so far also Ok. There was at least a hospice, is now a hotel. But for the peaks you have to go a few kilometers further south.
So from when no matter to 1450.

    I have already found one again.