I don't know about the tower. My pareidolia is stuck on the long walls of Bellinzona.

The heraldry is interesting and potentially accurate, but too recent. A 15th Century representation would be far more convincing.

While this has been and continues to be an interesting and informative discussion directly connected to the VMs, it is an investigation with quite limited specificity in regard to either place or time. The VMs illustration is a strong suggestion that the artist has seen historical Ghibelline fortifications, which may apply to those who crossed the Alpine passes in journeys to and from Venice or Rome.

This thread is a list of examples, but the topic is "15th C. perception.

AI Almighty says - 14th C. "By the 14th century, the era of direct Imperial interference in Italy waned, and the Papacy relocated to Avignon, France. Without the central backing of Emperor or Pope, the bloody feud slowly died out. The deep structural and political divisions left by the Guelphs and Ghibellines permanently shaped Italian city-states, paving the way for intense regional competition and the rise of local signori (lords) during the early Renaissance."  Avignon 1309-1376

Starting at 1400 then, are swallowtail merlons still seen as something more than scenic reminders of the past?

I'm don't sure it matters, does it? The origin of the swallowtails is well established. The fact they persisted on castles for centuries after is not contested. The point is if we assume that although perhaps not literal, the imagery is at least deliberate, one can reasonably infer a place of not exactly a time. The time we already have from RC dating, so all that can reasonably be inferred at this point is some point in the 15th century, someone who had some connection to these environs decided to copy this on to vellum/parchment.  My point is whether if we take a combination of factors on that page outside the swallowtails, we might learn anything further?

Huhu, I want to comeback to the missing flag for Salerno on the swallow tail merlon map.
It was still not added. Is there any reason? Salerno had approved all kind of swallowtail merlons and plenty of the similar manuscript art (in manuscripts at least 200 years older than the MS Beinecke 408). 
I suggested allready one manuscript (see below) with similar picturing.
I have collected in sum about 33 original composite manuscripts, that belong all to the same 500 year old school. From 11 different scholars.
You want me to upload all of them here? So can you copy and paste-add-them with a manuscript art flag/marker on your map?
Or do we need a new thread for this?
This might be really interesting for all lingusitic purposes as well, I guess. Since I cannot translate them myself. But for that reason I am in the linguistic portal, right?

(29-06-2026, 01:50 PM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can I submit a manuscript "Liber ad Honorem Augusti" for this map?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You are allowed to track this link here: "https://www.e-codices.ch/de/bbb/0120-2/97r/0/"

It is from the poet Pietro da Eboli and it is picturing all kind of swallowtail merlons on different infrastructures. Since this autor belonged to a specific school which still seems to be missing on your map ... could you please add this entry under "manuscript art" and "swallowtail merlons"?

What else can you find in just this one manuscript? Archers, moons, stars, scholars, kings and queens, palaces, crowns, galeros, animals, plants, hills, medicine, philophosy, religion, believe systems, history writing.

That manuscript uses rectangular merlons throughout, am I missing something? Unless you are talking about the leftmost tower on that page you sent, which just looks like the scribe having a bad moment to me.

I can see clearly merlons. The whole manuscript is full of them. Did you have time to check all the folios?
And even... if they are "sloppy" painted, even if the painter had a "bad moment" as you mentioned... don't you think, that the manuscript as whole is at least worth to be called "same manuscript"-art? And added for this reason?

Plus the coat of arm of the medivial city of Salerno is carring merlons as well. See down below, cited again. I think those merlons are not better nor worse in quality than the other attributions in this thread. And their provenience is clearly approved, since the manuscript itself is from the late 12th century, it is complete and the author is known. What do you think?

(29-06-2026, 07:46 PM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just look here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And the guests can use this link: "https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Wappen_in_der_Provinz_Salerno#/media/Datei:Salerno-Stemma.svg"
It's a coat of arms of the Civitas Hippocratica, today known as Salerno. I guess you had another discussion going on about "Yppocrates" today ... in another thread. Do you need more evidences? And what kind of?

In case, this map (thread) belongs to special hypothesis (maybe to a project that is only focussing on the Alpine region), then please let me know. I couldn't figure it out, if this map is straight connected to a thesis for a limited place of origin. Then of course, you don't need to add Salerno to your map. It is way to South for supporting an origin in the Alps, it is clearly South of Naples.