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Dots merging with the text
- Dots merging with the text
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Dots merging with the text
CaryR > 18-02-2021, 03:28 AM
I'm not sure if this belongs in the imagery or text section, because dotted lines are a feature of the imagery in many places. I'm usually more focused on the imagery--but--I was noticing how dots also sometimes become integrated with text, like on the outermost circular border of 69v/70r. Here a long string of dots merges into a string of repeated glyphs, and then a few distinct glyphs, a few more dots, and a few less distinct glyphs that seem to merge into a continuing line of dots. I'm not sure if it happens elsewhere. It's a place that seems to blur the "line" between what is text, and what is more of a "decorative element" (if you could call it that), of the imagery. Did the scribe start to write something and then decided not to?
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RE: Dots merging with the text
Antonio García Jiménez > 18-02-2021, 03:55 PM
It makes me happy that someone other than me raises this question. As CaryR says the outer ring of this folio is a place that seems to blur the line between what is text and what is imagery.
I like to call it the key clue that uncovers the crime. This string of o's clearly shows that the glyph o is the fundamental symbol of the entire symbolic system that forms the VM script. The dots simply stand for the o's. We have to imagine all the circles that we see in the VM formed by o's, and see the paragraphs of the running text also as circles filled with o's.
The o's represent the sky full of the stars. [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]All other glyphs replace the o's to form the words with the other astronomical symbols.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] [/font]
The VM script is simply a game that wants to somehow reflect the movement in the sky -
RE: Dots merging with the text
RenegadeHealer > 18-02-2021, 09:17 PM
Ellie Velinska used to have a blog post that drew a striking parallel between that EVA [ooooooooolar], and one of the strings of numbers, consisting of mostly zeroes, that filled the tables and roundels of Trithemius' Steganographia (1499). This is the book that Jim Reeds demonstrated in 1998 was a cipher, disguised as a numerological grimoire, by solving it. Having been extensively involved with the VMs, I can't imagine Jim Reeds didn't notice or remark upon this parallel at some point.
I spent a night up way too late once, looking at an eBook of Steganographia, looking for the number string 000000000452, keeping in mind that EVA [l, a, & r] were all common handwritten forms of the Arabic numerals 4, 5, & 2, respectively, in medieval Europe. If that string exists anywhere in that book, I wasn't able to find it. I wasn't all that hopeful about this line of inquiry to begin with; Trithemius and his works all post-date the VMs's likely date of composition, so nothing in the VMs could possibly be a reference to him. However, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the VMs's author(s) and audience running in some of the same circles as Trithemius' teachers. One thing that this particular rabbit hole taught me is that mysticism, cryptography, and conlanging attracted largely similar crowds in the middle ages.
I'll probably not pursue this Trithemius connection any further, because it's a tenuous connection in my opinion. But if anyone else disagrees and thinks it might be promising, I'll certainly be following along and cheering you on. -
RE: Dots merging with the text
DONJCH > 19-02-2021, 02:27 AM
They are not all dots are they? Some are dashes, some look like minims, depending on the angle intended, and some are curved like apostrophes.
Has anybody counted them? -
RE: Dots merging with the text
-JKP- > 19-02-2021, 03:54 AM
I have an idea I've been working on for a while, with about 30 examples (I don't have time to upload all of them right now). I was planning to blog about it.
Here's the idea... the dots are decorative. The VMS diagram was going to have a decorative border that never got painted (or was simply sketched in with no intention of painting it). The letters are annotations, but in Voynichese rather than Latin or German (unlike the other annotations).
Here are some examples of decorative dots. They were used in many countries, especially from about 1200 to about 1500:
Once you become aware of them, you start seeing them all over the place. Many are in a • • • o O O o • • • style.
But, in a more technical vein, there is also this one, so I am not stuck on just one idea:
Pal. Lat. 1340 -
RE: Dots merging with the text
CaryR > 20-02-2021, 06:22 AM
I feel there could be many possibilities, so I would personally not draw any conclusion about what this must mean.
I think there are actually two separate anomalies here, although they do seem to merge together. Ignoring the string of dots, it's unique in the manuscript to find nine "o" glyphs repeated together, (or nine of any glyph) so this is curious on its own. Since glyphs throughout the manuscript seem to be deliberately chosen and deliberately put in a certain order, it seems likely it would be the same here.
The placement of the string of glyphs among the dots is another (possibly separate?) anomaly, though the repetition of both dots and o's make them look visually similar. I think it's less likely that the number of dots is significant, since there are so many of them compared to the o's.
It does very much resemble a decorative border with the dots and o's, and it is interesting to see those examples. Dots in the manuscript are always part of the imagery and/or decorative, whereas o's are always part of the text but can occasionally be part of the imagery too (such as the center of some stars). So a combination of dots and o's might be simply decorative, but then there are those extra glyphs following the string of o's, so I don't know.
Another thought is that maybe the dots on either side indicate that something is continuing on or moving around the perimeter. -
RE: Dots merging with the text
-JKP- > 20-02-2021, 08:12 AM
Cary, the reason I thought the non-"o" glyphs might be annotations is because there are a few in other parts of the manuscript. I don't know if they are discussed all on the same thread, there might be two or three threads. For example, there is the word "rot" written vertically in a stem (which is possibly "red" in German), and MarcoP found a second example in a root, where the same thing is written horizontally.
So, MAYBE they are instructions, but in Voynichese rather than Latin characters. -
RE: Dots merging with the text
bi3mw > 20-02-2021, 09:16 AM
Thanks @JKP, I find your examples with the decorations in the initials convincing. The only thing that is special in the VMS is that a short string Voynichese is written down. It just seems like the author is playing around with this decorative element. -
RE: Dots merging with the text
Anton > 20-02-2021, 08:27 PM
(18-02-2021, 09:17 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the VMs's author(s) and audience running in some of the same circles as Trithemius' teachers.
I once was fond of this idea, especially I was interested in the mythical Pelagius of Majorca who was associated with Fernando of Cordova; it all ended in my bying a book about Fernando of Cordova, - and, in short, this real man could not have been that Pelagius. I also bought the Brann's book about Trithemius (the later of the two, and more easily available), - which still lies unread.
There remains the unidentified Libanus Gallus nonetheless, to entertain our imagination :-)