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[split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

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• [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

• RE: [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

  ReneZ > 04-01-2021, 06:27 PM

  I'm not disagreeing here - I am not at all sure what Q13 is telling us.
  
  There are, however, several important things to keep in mind related to the medieval bathing tradition, and its manuscript tradition:
  
  - Beside the well-known illustrated manuscripts, like the "Balneis Puteolanis", there are many others that are text-only, and not nearly as well known to the Voynich world. (Nick has listed many at one of his Cipher Mysteries blog posts, but I  have not delved into this).
  
  - The water in these medicinal baths was there both for external purposes (bathing in it) and internal purposes (drinking it).
  
  - The illustrations in the Balneis are primarily concerned with the bathing part. One can occasionally see someone drinking it too, but this is a detail, and what happens as a result of this drinking is not illustrated.
  
  - I could easily imagine that the Q13 illustrations show both: the bathing part on some folios and the effect-on-the-inner-organs part in some other folios. It could try to illustrate what is only described by text in other manuscripts.
  
  This is just one of many things that I can imagine, so I present it 'for what it is worth'.
  
  Someone familiar with the texts of these bathing manuscripts could surely say more.

• RE: [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

  Searcher > 04-01-2021, 06:58 PM

  (04-01-2021, 03:48 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Searcher Wrote:It seems to me that all information should be more holistic, not fragmentary

  To be fair, if anyone had a viable holistic solution, we wouldn't be having these discussions. I think all researchers may agree on one thing: we cannot completely link Q13 to anything else we know. 

  
  Generallly, I think a viable holistic solution won't come (or won't be accepted) until the text is deciphered.
  
  

  Quote:I believe what binds these pages is an artificial layering of narratives. But if you ask me "what is Q13a?" I will not say "narratives"; I will say: an exercise in intentionally synthesizing information from unrelated domains. The word "exercise" should be taken in the broad sense: a personal project, or a literal exercise given in an educational context. Made for personal use or to share with others, I don't know, and it doesn't matter much right now.

  
  Koen, I understand your arguments. The most of researchers base their judge on some existing examples and compare them to the VMs picture. But when you say that (just for example) "We may suspect kinship with the alchemical tradition, but again it is not the same, and any parallels are fragmentary" or "We may see hints of Balneis, but it is not the same, and there are indications against it. Q13b is probably the best superficial match here, but Q13a takes an entirely different turn", you must confess that "an exercise in intentionally synthesizing information from unrelated domains" looks also unusual. If this is a personal project, why can't it be a personal project of alchemical description or balneological one?
  
  

  Quote:Pressed for a more holistic explanation, I would say each figure (nymph) represents a point where two or three narratives meet. The nymph with the "Thing" at the top of this folio represents the Bear constellation itself (1), which sits at the "spindle" of the celestial sphere, the highest point of the sky, providing a guiding light for mariners. But also Callisto, who was turned into this very constellation (2). But now I think the religious layer here is Genesis, so this is also the point where "God's spirit" starts separating zones in the world underneath, and says: let there be light. (3) 

  
  Yes, detail is our all. Pay attention also that all the ring-like objects always accompany such noticeable Q13 objects as the "cross" and the so-called "spindle": You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I lead to a thought that if "The nymph with the "Thing" at the top of this folio represents the Bear constellation [or Callisto] [light?]", it must be the same on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . I think that appearing of those objects on the same page and, even, scene definitely gives us to understand that they are connected somehow, despite a little change of a scene. 
  And don't forget about the water. It is an important detail, that's why I think the alchemical context is likely. It rather can unite alchemical processes with astrology, myths and with physiological processes of an organism.

• RE: [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

  Searcher > 04-01-2021, 09:48 PM

  P. S. Koen, our discussion provoced me to make something. I hope it will be interesting and surprising. Soon.

• RE: [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

  R. Sale > 04-01-2021, 11:07 PM

  It is intentionally cluttered with images and threads of this and that. Whether things are hidden or not depends on what an investigator knows or can discover that is historically valid. Heraldry is an example. Heraldic science was quite significant throughout Europe and well beyond the VMs C-14 time period. However, the potential heraldry in the VMs appears to be insignificant if it is noticed at all. That is a mistake. Intentionally cluttered images provide places for more significant images to hide.
  
  The intentional use of altered and combined images prevents single source identification. The VMs cosmos provides the most prominent example. Connections based of structural similarity to posthumous illustrations for texts by Oresme and de Metz can be seen. And those connections are provided, not by the authors of the texts, but by the provenance of their production. BNF Fr. 565 dated c 1410 in Pars; Harley 334 dated 1430-1440 in Paris. And this just *happens* to occur in the VMs C14 time frame.
  
  A number of topics recently discussed here have a "substantial opportunity for existence" in this same time frame. Yes there is a fair degree of ambiguity, which easily occurs from a number of potential sources. However there is also accumulating evidence that the illustrations reveal a knowledgeable familiarity with events that would have occurred during this same C-14 period.
  
  Historically, after Agincourt (1415), the English expanded their control of the north of France, and in alliance with the Duchy of Burgundy from 1419, held control of Paris from 1420 to 1435. Other VMs illustrations have been interpreted as occurring during this time period including specific references to the Golden Fleece, which originated in 1430, in the Duchy of Burgundy.
  
  Just recently, there was the suggestion that VMs Virgo was a *combined* illustration with certain added similarities to illustrations of the Virgin Mary standing on a crescent moon. This interpretation was potentially supplemented by the discovery of an added illustration. The provenance of that illustration (MS M.46) is Ghent c. 1420. Again within the C-14 dates when Ghent was part of the Duchy of Burgundy. So this would be another example of historical provenance that makes the same historical connections with the early part of the golden age of Burgundy under Philip the Good.
  
  The intentional use of dual interpretations for the heraldry on VMs White Aries is a clear confirmation of trickery. The VMs is a puzzle. Whether or not it can be solved, not to mention its damaged condition, is something that remains undetermined.

• RE: [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

  Koen G > 05-01-2021, 12:38 AM

  (04-01-2021, 06:58 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."The nymph with the "Thing" at the top of this folio represents the Bear constellation [or Callisto] [light?]", it must be the same on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . 

  
  Ah, but they are different. The object is not the same (missing "spike") and two it is held differently so may invoke different connotations. The one held high would, in my view, be able to communicate both (cosmic) spindle and a torch or candle holder, hence the hybrid form. The one held low is held just like a spindle, with a piece of text in "distaff" position.
  
  To be clear, I'm not saying my approach is better than any other, I rather meant to say it suffers from the same problems as anything else we can do with Q13. 
  
  Bottom line is that I think te section is challenging no matter one's approach, and it is good to keep various options open. I am glad that people of various backgrounds an interests are exploring different paths here on the forum and elsewhere, and I won't hesitate to share ideas or insights that might help others along. I don't think of competing theories, but rather different attempts to solve a seemingly impossible problem.
  
  Rene: I agree that if one tries to take the VM images as much as possible at face value, then "medicine" seems to unite the manuscript: medicinal plants, therapeutic bathing, inner workings of the body, recipes. I would not deny this, and maybe I am even more convinced than most that images of the Balneis-or-something-similar have been used for reference, as Marco and others have shown.
  
  However, the fact that we are dealing with one of the world's most enigmatic ciphers perhaps also warrants a less direct approach to the imagery. And even in a literal reading, the addition of nymphs manipulating the organs would probably be unique to this MS. (JKP once shared a parallel for the nymph standing in male genitals, but this was in fact a scene from myth rather than an anatomical illustration).
  
  It is true that finding a specific text about medicinal bathing etc. might explain everything. But this text would have to be different from the ones we know of right now, to explain the particular nature of these images. Granted, there are many texts unknown to us (here on the forum and in general) but this argument can be made for any approach to Q13. For example, I would be interested to find a text that incorporates certain specific stories from Ovid and certain specific religious texts.

• RE: [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

  -JKP- > 05-01-2021, 02:06 AM

  Yes, it was a reference to Venus in a manuscript mostly to do with Ovid but... the penis reference is not specifically Ovidian. After some research, I'm pretty sure the Venus-penis is inspired by Hesiod.

• RE: [split] References to Adam and Eve in Q13

  Koen G > 06-01-2021, 10:05 AM

  Considering loose references to Genesis in relation to nymph attributes, there is also this one to take into account, an identification proposed by others before me:
  
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