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Cipher database

Mark Knowles > 20-11-2020, 10:27 PM

I have been in touch with Beata Megyesi in Stockholm who runs the DECODE database. This is a database of ciphers that they are collecting there.

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Michelle referred me to them, although in truth I had come across them before. Nevertheless, Michelle mentioning them encouraged me to get in touch with them. I am searching for Milanese ciphers keys from between the years 1425 to 1445 and these are very rare, though I have managed to collect other early 15th Milanese cipher keys. So I thought martialing all forces I can find in this search would be advisable.

The problem of course can be that when these ciphers are not already digitised obtaining permission to share photoreproductions is difficult. Beata has been in contact with archives and will do her best to request permission.

In contrast to the opinion of one user of this website obtaining permission to share photoreproductions requires effort.

[personal stuff redacted - Anton]

I have amassed a very large collection of early 15th ciphers, despite their scarcity. Yet, until permission is obtained I cannot share them. Obtaining permission is slightly arduous as it requires contacting archives individually, however I am happy to leave that to Beata. I have informed Beata of all the knowledge that I have as to the location of early 15th century ciphers amongst others, which I know she has really appreciated as I have amassed quite a bit of knowledge on the subject.

Whilst my interest in general is really only in ciphers before 1447 and after 1350, I know that some researchers have expressed interest in much later ciphers, which I am sure Beata would be keen to add to her database. So it might be an idea for people to share their cipher discoveries with DECODE and similarly benefit from what they have to share.

DECODE have 120 members in 24 countries and they go on cipher hunting trips to various archives to expand their database. Also members on the ground help by investigating their local archives. I have offered to help with their hunt in British Archives, where possible, and I am sure they will do their best to assist me in finding what I seek.

Now I appreciate that most researchers do not have the focus on ciphers that I have, especially when it comes to early 15th century ciphers, nevertheless some might know of cipher records unknown to Beata and her team. I would be happy to share those or others can share them directly. They have collected a large number, so I imagine that they are aware of the most obvious sources, but smaller or less well known archives are more likely to have eluded them.
RE: Cipher database

Mark Knowles > 21-11-2020, 02:13 AM

There are a number of other cipher hunters that I have encountered as part of my research. In fact interest in early 15th ciphers seems to be greater outside of Voynich circles than amongst Voynich researchers; I am not sure why that is.
RE: Cipher database

Koen G > 21-11-2020, 07:25 AM

Probably because common 15th century cipher methods are unlikely candidates for the VM. At least, something like simple substitution alone would not help us much. Also, after work and family responsibilities, there are only that many hours left in the week to devote to VM research. It seems like cipher hunting is a hobby in and of its own.

Did you encounter any cipher (method or glyph set) that sheds more light on known VM problems?
RE: Cipher database

Mark Knowles > 21-11-2020, 08:00 AM

(21-11-2020, 07:25 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Probably because common 15th century cipher methods are unlikely candidates for the VM. At least, something like simple substitution alone would not help us much. Also, after work and family responsibilities, there are only that many hours left in the week to devote to VM research. It seems like cipher hunting is a hobby in and of its own.

Did you encounter any cipher (method or glyph set) that sheds more light on known VM problems?

Cipher methods are more varied than you think. I have more reason than ever to believe that they are closely tied to the Voynich.

Well, I think the number of hours people devote or have devoted to Voynich research is not the problem. The problem is that people spread themselves very thinly. My research into the Voynich is very narrow, but very deep. Most people seem to feel it necessary to propose a theory of every aspect of the Voynich, so their research is very broad and quite shallow. I have focused on very specific areas and am very ignorant of many aspects of the Voynich. If this was a standard collaborative project different individuals would choose to specialise in different areas of Voynich research instead of everybody's research overlapping with everybody else's. It seems many people prefer to be a jack of all trades and master of none. I know this sounds harsh, but this is something about the Voynich research community that has bothered me for some time.

It seems that for those who consider the Voynich to be written in some kind of cipher then this is a very profitable area of research and there certainly seem to be some who claim so.
RE: Cipher database

Koen G > 21-11-2020, 08:14 AM

If you want to get more people aboard the cipher train, it might help to provide some examples of relevant ciphers. Unknown means unloved.

I understand your point that specialisation is key, but the VM is a dangerous subject. If your scope is too narrow, you are more likely to go deep down the wrong rabbit hole. Therefore, I am happy that there are people with a good understanding of the MS as a whole.
RE: Cipher database

Mark Knowles > 21-11-2020, 08:33 AM

Well, I am not in a position to share things at the moment as I have stated. I am certainly following up on Beata's process of contacting archives for their permission.

I am not trying to get people onboard the cipher train, but just to share what they know of later ciphers with the DECODE database as it will help them and cause them to make more cipher knowledge available to all.

Compiling knowledge in a specific area is not going down the wrong rabbit hole, it increases the collective knowledge on an uncertain subject. It is fine that there are people with a broad knowledge of the Voynich, but it is unfortunate that that is all we have and that it is hard to fine people with a deep knowledge of a specific area.
RE: Cipher database

Mark Knowles > 21-11-2020, 08:54 AM

(21-11-2020, 08:14 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you want to get more people aboard the cipher train, it might help to provide some examples of relevant ciphers. Unknown means unloved.

I understand your point that specialisation is key, but the VM is a dangerous subject. If your scope is too narrow, you are more likely to go deep down the wrong rabbit hole. Therefore, I am happy that there are people with a good understanding of the MS as a whole.

The argument that you have given against specialisation is the argument that can be applied to any and all academic subjects. In academic research there is always the possibility that a specific line of enquiry will not yield results and yet, correctly, this does not stop people from researching specific areas.
RE: Cipher database

Anton > 21-11-2020, 02:19 PM

Let's not step in yet another discussion about who has been rude or has not. We have already had enough of that in the past. If anybody feels s/he got insulted, s/he should address such concerns to the forum staff, not blow the flame publicly in the forum. The latter is simply not welcome.

EDIT: OK, so I redacted this thread a bit.
RE: Cipher database

Mark Knowles > 04-12-2020, 02:37 AM

Beata Megyesi's student Crina Tudor has uploaded many of the ciphers that I have shared with them, but they are currently private so cannot be download until permission is obtained. Anyway the links are as follows:

Florence - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Mantova
keys - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
ciphers - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Modena - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Nicola Guarna key - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Sovereign Powers 1592 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Siena - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Cifrari Conservati Presso L'Archivio di Stato di Milano - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Tranchedino - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

There are some more of my collection that are yet to be uploaded.
RE: Cipher database

bi3mw > 28-02-2022, 05:18 PM

(04-12-2020, 02:37 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tranchedino - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Here is the digital edition of Tranchedino's work in the ÖNB. It is worth a look.

Francesco Tranchedino, Furtivae litterarum notae, quibus usus fuisse videtur in cancellaria Vicecomitum Mediolanensium, 1450-1496

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