F66r question

[Aga Tentakulus]

Yes, right to the upper "S".
And he writes "des geri©tes" exactly.
the last "e" looks like an "i". Apart from the fielding "c" correctly spelled.

[-JKP-]

And another example why it is called "den mus des" and not "del"
Extract from a legal text of the town of Schaffhausen. ca. 1300
I think that someone who writes legal texts also knows the language.
Also here different S are used.

And now show me an example of the twisted "m". Please a whole sentence.
("uffm" on one) and ("uffz" on that) is not the same. But I need to see the context.

Aga, your example in Post #55 doesn't work.

The circled letters are normal straight-s in 14th century script. The straight-s does not have a loop.

The letter at the end of "?en muß ?el" on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a normal letter ell ("l"). It has a loop. You can't just ignore the loop. They added it specifically so the letter ell wouldn't be confused with straight-s.

[Aga Tentakulus]

You are mistaken.
On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the same "S" as in *53 above.
( nuss, gross, stoss ). Has also a bow. This is just the way the person writes.
And he means it exactly as he wrote it. "den mus des".  In good German "dann muss das".
So and not otherwise.

[RenegadeHealer]

JKP, your adventures in paleography recently sent me down a rabbit hole learning about the evolution of the Roman alphabet. If I were to collect and classify handwritten alphabets / pen tests the way you have, I'd put all alphabets with the same sequence of glyphs after t in the same category together. I can't imagine a better indicator for the time and place where a writer learned his ABCs. Taw was the last letter of the Phoenician abjad. Therefore, in a writing system derived from Phoenician, any letters after the direct descendent of Taw were later additions; their presence and order was a lot less "sacred" than the core 22.

It blew my mind to visit the Netherlands, and learn that in Dutch, y is traditionally regarded as a variation of ij. Sometimes it's written ÿ in order to draw attention to this equivalence. As a result, the estuary in the center of Amsterdam, the IJ, is in the running for the world's shortest place name, since it can be written as Ÿ. (It pretty much never is, though.) I noticed that the ÿ in the alphabet JKP posted is dotted, which I would think could be a big clue in placing it historically. To anyone's knowledge, does the equivalence y = ÿ = ij = ii = ī = 2 (in Roman numerals) extend beyond the Netherlands in the late Middle Ages?

[Helmut Winkler]

@ Renegadehealer

To anyone's knowledge, does the equivalence y = ÿ = ij = ii = ī = 2 (in Roman numerals) extend beyond the Netherlands in the late Middle Ages?

There is literally no y at the time (and later), it is always ij, usually with dots (inluding the month names in the ms.) except in words coming from Greek. A good example is the German name for Bavaria, whih is Baijern until the 19th c., then it becomes Bayern

[ReneZ]

The letter y is used in modern Dutch, but it is not part of the alphabet. It is part of foreign words.
The second last letter is a ligatured 'ij' . The two sound completely differently.

The Dutch 'ij' is quite interesting. It is highly dependent on local pronunciation. I cannot quickly think of any language that has a similar sound as the official version of 'ij'. It has the same sound as 'ei', one of a sheer unlimited number of spelling traps in Dutch.

[RenegadeHealer]

Thanks for that clarification, guys. In light of this, "equivalence" is too strong a word, and imprecise. "A close historical relationship between the letter y and the bigram ij "is perhaps a better way to phrase this.

[nablator]

Thanks for that clarification, guys. In light of this, "equivalence" is too strong a word, and imprecise. "A close historical relationship between the letter y and the bigram ij "is perhaps a better way to phrase this.

In other languages than Dutch ? Not in French or medieval Latin.

[Aga Tentakulus]

Here in Switzerland the "y" is still rarely used.
As number "yi" = 6. but y with a dot.
In words it is the same as Rene, it is spoken as "ei".
Example: vys = weiss=white, wy = wein=wine, sy, syn = sein = to be...etc.


Exceptions would have been: gsy = gewesen = been

[Koen G]

I think it is because in Dutch, the digraph [ij] represents one vowel (it is a diphthong in standard Dutch, but that is still one vowel). As such, it is often written and the ligature of [ij] is thought of as a single unit. This probably facilitated the Middle Dutch custom of swapping it out for the similar looking (and in Dutch otherwise unused) [y].