(16-04-2024, 12:14 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Ahmet Ardıç" pid='58893' dateline='1713216821']
The author wrote some plant names just like today.
[Dear Ahmet, It would be more convincing to see them written as they were in the 15th century.]
[This is f67v1 you are looking at: v2 comes before v1. I see your "sarı çlapax" (or close enough, the space isn't there and two letters are a bit unclear). Your "ay'i" again is very optimistic, or it doesn't exist. Shouldn't it be
at or
ati as a distinct word?]
Dear Nablator,
First, let me answer the question linked to Page 67v. As you know, although the texts in the content cannot always be read clearly and there is probably more than one person's hand in this manuscript (as I thought and-or as thought by Ms. Lisa Fagin Davis), at this stage, I have not had the opportunity to examine in detail in the page. While talking about the words we read with such a first reading, we see that the author wrote the word meaning AY (moon) in the form of OY (in the Latin alphabet). If there are I/U/Ü/İ word suffixes at the end of the word, this is written as OYU (ay-ı) according to the vowel harmony of Turkish. The equivalent of the last U is the English word "the". So here it is written as OYU, not AYI or AYU but it is as "ay-ı" in modern Turkish.
It seems that it can be interpreted with the way the third letter from the beginning is written in the words "sarıçılapax/sarı-çlapax". If this is a letter written like a dot, then it should be read with the "AN" sound. Therefore the words will take the form "SARAN ÇLAPAX". In this case, the English equivalent of these words will mean "surrounding lights".
Your main question (as I understand) seems to aim at understanding whether a word such like "SAZAK" exists in Turkish in 15th century or determining its historical origins. Even if I could show you the ancient form of this word in Arabic script in one particular MS, I believe it wouldn't precisely answer your question. Many ancient manuscripts were written in Arabic script during the Ottoman period, and I cannot read the originals myself. However, I read academic articles about them and sift through names and synonyms in these articles. Additionally, various dictionaries written by linguists are referenced occasionally, and I often consult these to identify them. My methods and the path I follow during our VM related research have always been the same as those experienced and successful linguists before me.
Below, I will mention some sources or articles where the word "SAZAK" is mentioned. However, it should be noted that showing a word in a modern dictionary as evidence of its existence in VM content is a consistent reference point. It's valuable as linguistic evidence by itself, even without any other proof.
While asking for a question and evidence is part of the process, there are also other ways and methods in linguistic outside of the path or method considered as the way to have one particular evidence of linguistics. Regarding the mention of the word "SAZAK," it's important to emphasize that linguistic evidence doesn't always need to come from historical texts or ancient sources. The presence of a word in a modern dictionary or linguistic corpus can also serve as strong evidence of its existence.
VM-like unread inscriptions become readable when linguists use certain methods. Therefore, it is advisable to consider past practices that do not rely on a single finding or evidence, but rather utilize multiple methods together and evaluate multiple findings simultaneously. For example, it can easily be examined whether there are structural similarities between compared texts. Statistical comparison can also be employed in this regard. Identifying word repetitions and words written side by side up to five times serve as direct evidence of a certain language. Finding such clear evidence marks an important stage of progress, as we have done, and assures us of the Turkish content of the texts. Subsequently, we performed an alphabet transcription. In doing so, we used the familiar sound values of known signs. For instance, mapping Old Turkic runic signs and Latin alphabet sound values to VM letter images. Indeed, the only way to read unreadable ancient inscriptions is through an accurate alphabet transcription. While the matters of word and sentence reading and interpretation details can be addressed in the next stage, the questions we pose to readers here are part of our completed work that has passed through these stages. Obtaining the answer you seek from us would provide limited information within this narrow scope.
There are some methods to verify the accuracy of the words we read in the VM content, and these are incorporated into practice. By receiving reciprocal answers to the questions we pose to you and those you pose to us, we can understand where we stand and also assist in the more consistent examination of our own work by others. At this point, while I cannot get answers to my simple questions, you bring up whether we can find the same word written in the 15th century with a single question. Of course, you may ask us questions, but I hope you are aware of the significance of linguistic methods to understand to what extent the answer you receive would benefit you. Because often, despite receiving such answers or similar ones, some individuals claim they cannot evaluate the responses by asserting they do not know Turkish. That's why I'm asking my questions in a simplified manner. I present a word and show a drawing, then ask a question related to them. If any person do not possess the research ability to answer these simple questions that just because of the related language is Turkish, would this person really want to evaluate the recorded old form of a Turkish word from the 15th century? While attempting to describe the progress made in a simple manner, I am unable to get answers to my simple questions. In this case, should I start scanning various books to find out in which manuscripts of the 15th century the word SAZAK appears as if it were a task you assigned to me?
The essence is that some words used in modern languages can also exist in the VM content (throughout 240 pages). Furthermore, we always refer to various written sources so that at least it is understood that the words we reference exist in Turkish. As a IE language speaker researcher please think again, while you struggle to interpret 400-year-old English words from your Indo-European manuscripts, would you still seek to evaluate a 600-year-old word from a debated dialect of Turkish?
Let's assume that the Turkish word "SAZAK" appears for the first time (in its oldest written form) in the VM manuscript. In this case, we can say that the oldest source in which the word appears is the VM manuscript.The comparison of the words reveals the relationship between the Turkish vocabulary of today and the vocabulary of the VM old Turkish content. And if we can do this, we already reach a conclusion. If we can also demonstrate that we can reach the same conclusion by following the method you suggested, can you evaluate our Eski Türkçe lehçeler arası ses geçişleri bilgisi (inter-dialectal sound transitions in Old Turkish) while we do this?
Would we need to demonstrate the existence of another word for 'apple' written in written sources of the same language during the same period or any period before to prove that this word, written in an alphabet not encountered before, means 'apple' ? Or should we first prove that this word, written in an unreadable alphabet, means 'apple' before doing so? In other words, we are firstly giving an evidence for that the word read by us as like apple is rally an aple. So, we had asked those basic questions to help you to understand that we had surpassed that first stage.
It is seen in many academic articles and different dictionaries that the word "SAZAK" appears. Some of these dictionaries belong to the "Türk Dil Kurumu" (Turkish Language Association), which is a state authority in linguistics. In some academic articles, you can see that the word "SAZAK" or its synonyms are mentioned, and the explanation of the word "SAZAK" is provided in these articles. This should at least inform you that the word "SAZAK" exists in Turkish and provide information about its meaning.
In some articles written about a manuscript called "Tercüme-i Baytarname," which is known to have been written in 1479 and is about horses, the word "SAZAK" appears with its synonyms as "MERSİN". For example, in an article called "HORSE COATS, HORSE TOMBERS AND PLANT NAMES IDENTIFIED IN THE WORK CALLED HAZÂ KİTÂB-I BAYTARNÂME," you can see that this word is explained in Turkish along as its synonym. (Which article subject is essentially about the 15th-century manuscript mentioned above.) This is a "baytarname" about horse and plant names, known to have been written in 1479, in the section where the words are explained with their synonyms (Tercüme-i Baytarname) to see pages 104 and 114 here) >>
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Other sources where the word Sazak is used with the same meaning:
1 > Dictionary of Colloquial Compilation in Turkey, Ankara, Turkish Language Association, 1978 volume: 10 S-T ( sa - tüzlük )
Bakınız > You are not allowed to view links.
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2 > PLANT NAMES IN TURKISH DICTIONARY >You are not allowed to view links.
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3 > Article;; "MULTIPLE MEANINGYNESS IN PLANT NAMES" by Yasemin YILDIZ >
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4 > See the word/name SAZAK in this Doctoral Thesis article named > "THE PLANT NAMES IN HISTORICAL TURKIC LANGUAGES, KAZAKH AND TURKISH LANGUAGES" by Aigül Türkpenova, . 2021 > You are not allowed to view links.
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5 > See the plant name Mersin is sinonimus with SAZAK from the
Adıyaman University Social Sciences Institute Journal, Year: 4, Issue: 7, December 2011, p. 123-145 > "THE PLANT NAMES IN THE ‘ALÂ’İM-İ CERRÂHÎN" / Article by Mehmet Gürlek. (Alaim-i Cerrahin , which means “Surgical symptoms”, is an important surgical medical text written at the end of the 15th century.)
6 > See the plant name SAZAK in this article too > AL-UḲYÂNÛSU ’L-BASÎṬ FÎ TARCAMATİ ’L-ḲÂMÛSİ ’L-MUḤÎṬ - ĞAYN -ARTİCLE (al-muġaẓġaẓa - al-iġtiyâl) INTRODUCTION –TEXT - VOCABULARY - INDEX
by Kadir YAĞIZ / Erzincan University, Institute of Social Sciences, Department of Turkish Language and Literature M.A. Thesis, June 2013 page 165
etc ...
I can extend the reference sources to hundreds of dictionaries and articles. But I think even these will prove that the plant name SAZAK exists in Turkish. As I said, this word is written as SAZAK in VM. Today, we still write this word as SAZAK. Those who understand this situation and similar ones also understand that we are on the right track.
Thanks