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Plant of Folio 2v

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• Plant of Folio 2v

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  Linda > 08-02-2020, 06:52 AM

  I realize the synonym, it doesn't tell me which species it is today, however. Nymphaea-like is exactly what i am pointing out, though, it is not Nymphoides-like, insofar as the rhisome. I would need to see a current photo or drawing and be provided with its current designation to call this it.

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  -JKP- > 08-02-2020, 06:55 AM

  Bogbean has quite a long rhizome, and a similar flower, but the leaves are elliptical and the VMS leaf is distinctly kidney-shaped.
  
  Bogbean and Nymphoides grow together, often with the flowers coming up in the same spot, crowding around each other. Let me see if I can find a picture...
  
  
  Okay... found one. These plants are close cousins... and often grow together:
  
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• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  Linda > 08-02-2020, 07:07 AM

  Hmm, the rhizome is not a match like the Nymphaea is, along with the other obvious differences in the leaves and flower arrangements
  
  

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  Linda > 08-02-2020, 07:21 AM

  Nymphoides peltata again
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I gotta say nope insofar as the rhizome.

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  Linda > 08-02-2020, 07:44 AM

  (08-02-2020, 05:38 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is a map that shows the native range of Nymphoides (scroll down). It grows in many different climates all over the world (the green color is the native range):
  
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  I believe the specimen of N. Indica  on that page shows that i was correct in thinking the items you characterized as leaf scars on the Nymphoides rhizome closeup were in fact root scars, there is a one point circular end in the photo which matches those in the closeup, which can be seen to be a cut off root.
  
  The map shows why i am not familiar with these in real life, none occur where i live.
  
  So, the hunt is still on for another horizontal rhizome similar to Nymphaea with flowers like some Nymphoides and or similar species, if you balk at the idea of a combo inclusive of many water lilies...or, it could be that a Nymphaea root was provided and drawn, and the rest came from the artist's own knowledge of or access to water lilies, and hence a hybrid was drawn.
  
  Here are the types of water lilies that i see in my area, i realize the flowers do not match the vms drawing at all, however see the stolon cross section with the four holes, this matches many of the vms rhizome scars (some show only three dots).
  
  

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  Koen G > 08-02-2020, 08:03 AM

  Given the fact that all other plants are quaint or combined in some way, I don't see why we should expect a one-subspecies match here. I would personally focus on the root since for once it appears more informed by reality than contemporary herbals (unless the scales are mnemonic and the realism is a coincidence).

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  -JKP- > 08-02-2020, 08:13 AM

  The VMS plants are sometimes combined with what are probably mnemonics (mnemonics are found in other medieval plants, as well, such as the "fish root" on the bogbean plant I posted upthread), but I don't think we have any evidence they are combination plants (in the sense of more than one species put together in a single drawing).
  
  I'm not saying the possibility doesn't exist, only that the naturalistic ones (like Viola, Ricinis, Tragopogon, Scamony, Cannabis and several others) do not feel that way, plus... it's a pandora's box. If we move into the realm of combination plants, then anything could be combined with anything (roots, leaves, flowers) and there's no way to know the source plants. Any combination is possible and all of it becomes subjective.
  
  The Plant 2v leaf, for example, can be found on hundreds of different plants if we take only the leaf. There's no way to know where to slice and dice them.

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  Linda > 08-02-2020, 08:53 AM

  Agreed, Koen, it is way more specific than most, although i would say the flower is pretty specific too, enough that the two in the drawing above would not qualify as matching at all. But you would get all three, those two plus Nymphoides, with a 2 out of 3 attitude towards the similarities to each part, with some leeway for various differences.
  
  There could be mnemonics involved too, or instead of things that seem to match.
  
  Here is another drawing showing the stolons in place on the Nymphaea, compared to the roots.
  
  
  
  JKP i realize allowing for combos opens up the permutations but at the same time i don't think it is so far out to make a category that includes three different waterlilies, rather than listing them separately. It could include a variety of other plants as well.
  
  Interesting. I just saw that seeblaats are used in heraldry. There may be a mnemonic in that aspect.
  
  
  Also i believe all three are edible in various ways, seeds, rhizomes, leaves...another set of threes.

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  -JKP- > 08-02-2020, 10:37 AM

  This is just a personal preference, but if discussions are about combination plants (I don't mean mnemonics), then it's far too lengthy and subjective to be productive, in my opinion. It's WAYYY too speculative. The time would be better spent studying the text.

• RE: Plant of Folio 2v

  Helmut Winkler > 08-02-2020, 10:59 AM

  [quote="-JKP-" pid='34634' dateline='1581131613']
  Why does it have to be two plants combined when it is a good match for Nymphoides?
  [/quote
  
  It does not have to be two plants, but I think it is a a possibility we should keep in mind, especially when plants look like 'Hybrids' or something
  
  I am a bit sceptical about the inclination  to identify Voynich plants with modern images and classifications  as modern species, I rather think I will take a look what the ancient writers called these plants, when we have simiiarities and how they identified them
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